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Photo Credit: Matthew Henderson

WWYDW: The Sedins Future

According to a report from Hockey Night in Canada’s Headlines segment, the Sedins want to return to the Canucks next season.

Now the pressure is on the Canucks. Do they take the Sedins up on that offer? And if so, for how many years and at how much term? What if the Sedins aren’t willing to take a sizeable hometown discount? What then?

I hadn’t given this a tonne of thought, admittedly, but now that I’ve been forced to, it’s clear that this is perhaps more complex than I originally gave credit.

So, I’ll pass this question on to you, the reader. What would you do with the Sedin twins assuming their interest in re-signing with the Canucks for next season is sincere?

Last week I askedWhat if you had your say over the Pacific Division All-Star Team? What would it look like?

Goon:

There are a few weird picks on the Pacific roster. Martin Jones hasn’t been very good – Mike Smith has been elite, but we need one player from each team, so I’d put John Gibson in Jones’s place, and Brent Burns, who is almost a PPG player on defence, in place of Brandon Montour. Given that the Golden Knights are first in the division and second in the league, I’d probably swap Monahan for Jonathan Marchessault as well giving this lineup:

1. Johnny Gaudreau, Calgary Flames
2. Connor McDavid, Edmonton Oilers
3. Anze Kopitar, Los Angeles Kings
4. Brock Boeser, Vancouver Canucks
5. Jonathan Marchessault, Vegas Golden Knights
6. William Karlsson, Vegas Golden Knights

Defensemen

1. Drew Doughty, Los Angeles Kings
2. Oliver Ekman-Larsson, Arizona Coyotes
3. Brent Burns, San Jose Sharks

Goalies:
1. John Gibson, Anaheim Ducks
2. Mike Smith, Calgary Flames

  • truthseeker

    Resign them with absolutely zero doubt. They will be fantastic 3rd line players as more young talent gets added to the roster. Their production is fine this year and similar production at a lower salary rate will be win win.

    1 or 2 years of term. 3 to 4 million per seems fair to me for both sides.

    • Goon

      Really they’re still performing at a second-line rate and are still excellent on the PP. Even if they decline to third-line players, they bring experience, leadership, powerplay excellence, and the ability to mentor the young swedes like Petterson, Dahlen (Dahlin fingers-crossed?).

      I’d be down to sign them to a couple more years in the range you suggest, or just do one-year contracts until they retire. Maybe $5 million per next season, $3 million after that. It’d be nice to see them stick around in a complementary role for a couple more years as the team starts to get competitive/relevant again.

      • defenceman factory

        There is more to performing at a second line level than points. They are sheltered, All their starts are in the O zone, they don’t kill penalties and 20% of their ice time is on the power play and they are both around – 12. Henrik has a FOW% well under 50%, has only 37 shots on goal all season and has a shooting % under 6%. They both have poor stats on takeaways vs giveaways.

        I don’t want to slag on the Sedins as I have a great deal of respect for them and believe they can still be useful for another year in a sheltered role. I just don’t want management to see them as more than they are at this point. They are great on the powerplay and can eat clock with a lead against other teams third or fourth line. They are consummate professionals and valuable mentors. But they do not perform at a second line level anymore.

    • Dirty30

      I would do 2 years at 3.5 per with one major stipulation — there’s a big honking party and they retire the C and A. Its time for them to let go of their vision of this team and simply play the game for a couple years as players.

      They have done their job, done a lot for the team and city, but Bo and Boeser need to take this team into a new era.

      I don’t doubt their ability to contribute, but hesitate to see this team tip-toe around another iteration of the “lets give the Sedins another chance at the play-offs and sign FA’s that should have been benched long ago in favour of the new guys”.

      • Killer Marmot

        I agree about the captaincy. It would even be doing the Sedins a favour, as it would simplify their jobs. Tanev with the C (if he wants it), Horvat and Sutter with the As. The defensive tilt of the captaincy sends a message to those prospects who think hockey is all about offense.

        • Dirty30

          Where does it say “strip them” of the Captaincy? Its simply that if they do sign an extension, there should be the opportunity for them to relinquish that extra responsibility and for it to be acknowledged in a positive way — hence the celebration.

  • Dirk22

    5 mill each at the very least for a 1 year deal. Anything less would be an insult and there’s no other free agents that need to be pursued so cap space isn’t an issue.

    • Giant-Nation

      I totally agree – We should resign these guys 3.5 mil each, Discuss moving letters to new group. The Sedins will still lead with out the letter and room will listen to them but at the same time it gives guys like Horvat a chance to enter Captancy with Vets backing him and showing him respect as he enters his new role (assuming Horvat is the next captain). This team healthy is so different from what we have seen past few months.

        • truthseeker

          I admit I didn’t check what the market is for their production rates. As someone pointed out very well below the median value for that kind of production is around 5.5 or so? So I’ll take back the low end of my post. 3 would be a bit on the stingy side. But there are other factors at play and I think 4 to 5 would be a fair number. I don’t think the Sedins are the type to be “offended” by a 4 million dollar offer and they have that comfort thing here which means if another team is offering 5 or 6 I don’t think they go. (though they should…money first if the difference is significant). Even at 5 each for a single season that’s not going to have any effect on the canuck’s cap situation in terms of causing problems as others have rightly stated.

    • Dirty30

      So you assume the Sedins would only be motivated by money and would be insulted by a team-friendly contract after they have been paid well and every effort has been made to create a winning environment and meet their needs?

      Did Jagr, one of the highest scoring players ever, get insulted by team-friendly contracts? Was he only motivated by money? Did he pout when he was the top scorer for Florida for a million bucks a season? IS offering someone millions to play a game insulting? Particularly when they are already rich, have won almost everything except a SC and don’t want to play anywhere else?

      If another team offered them 3.5 million it would be an insult. But the Canucks aren’t asking the Sedins to carry them to the SC right now — the Sedins might not see the playoffs again in their career.

      The Sedins will have jobs for life with the Canucks and make lots of money on top of what they’ve already earned.

      And while there may be no FA’s to go after, if the team has extra money for bad contracts to get picks then thats important too. Because, really, have you seen our D? And there’s what, one or two D prospects in line?

      So sure, spend extra money on two players who aren’t playing for the extra money.

  • Nuck16

    One year deal MAX, cost not a big concern due to our current cap situation, but $5mil ballpark. And for god’s sake can we please split them up once and a while? No coach seems to have the stones to try it, even when our seasons our complete write-offs…worst case scenario you put them back together after a few games.

  • Killer Marmot

    The Canucks may have trouble filling out their roster with competitive players next year, even if they bring up some rookies. This is especially so if players are lost at the trade deadline and thus not re-signed. Thus the Canucks will need to acquire some short-term free agents over the summer, so why not the Sedins?

    But it depends upon the price. $4 million sound about right. The Sedins have scored well this year, but only by getting a lot of offensive-zone faceoffs and power-play time. Players who need protected minutes are not worth more.

  • JawKnee

    3.5m each would be good, less than that would be fantastic (and probably unrealistic). I wonder what happens to the C in particular (but also Danny’s A). Who on the team is ready to take over the captaincy? Or should anybody do so yet? I don’t think it should rest on point production, but rather on the ability to get the team playing; on the other hand, look at this season and the previous couple.

  • defenceman factory

    It is time to move on and the message of evolving to the next generation needs to be clear. A one year deal at $4.5 mill each or less. A third line role, the power play, a farewell tour, a heartfelt goodbye and everyone moves on. The end of an era.

    The Canucks might win a few more games in the 19-20 if the Sedins are still here but the leadership of the team needs to pass to others. With the Sedins still here they would continue to bear much of the accountability for team performance.

  • Jabs

    The Sedins are performing well for second line players so there should be a place for them but the rub is that they need to significantly reduce their contracts.

    The other thing is that I believe that the team’s leadership should be restructured to be able to move ahead. Bo Horvat is the captain of this team and needs to be recognized as such.

    Despite what Linden has said, pro hockey is a business and this team should not be thinking that it owes anything to the Sedins.

    • defenceman factory

      I agree the Sedins aren’t owed any money or contract but the Canucks organization does owe the Sedins a lot. They owe them the ongoing recognition of what they have contributed. They owe them putting their Jerseys in the rafters and whatever impact and influence they can apply to get them in the hall of fame. Commission the statues, set the end date and lets move on.

  • myshkin

    This topic has been beaten to death. At the end of the season both sides will sit down and make a decision. They’ll be another year older and another step slower next year.

  • bushdog

    regardless of the amount they are offered it’s going to have a big impact on the team’s ability to sign and re-sign other people. what if they stand in the way of a youngster who might otherwise be on the team? there are only 2 things that make sense to me. a trade at the deadline brings big returns, they resign for a day later and retire to the rafters. or they retire. that money is hugely important folks. there are guys here who need to be re-signed – think boeser. there will be free agents that can help along the way as kids develop. we don’t have to spend to the max when we are rebuilding even if that figure will be increasing. you bet it’ll leave us in a tough spot if things don’t pan out, like all the picks becoming superstars lol but what’s the problem with more picks? bye guys and thanks a lot…

    • crofton

      It’s way past highly likely there will be no trade for them. They have NTC’s and have said they don’t want to play anywhere else. And after filling the seats in Vancouver for 17 seasons, they have earned that, especially after having already taken a hometown discount. So there will be no returns. And if you think they have nothing to bring to the table any more, you’re delusional. In fact, in a 3rd line role, which assumes the prospects make the team and Vancouver has a bona fide 2nd line, they will likely put up more points playing against 2nd or 3rd D pairings.

  • LTFan

    The Sedins – should they be resigned or retired? For me it is a simple answer. Resign for a year with an option for a 2nd year (if that can be done). Why , well based on the points they have at 47 games – Henrik 32, Daniel 30 – they should both be in the 50 to 55 point range at the end of the season. IMO there is not a GM out there who would not resign 2 players who would contribute close to 100 points to the team in the 2018 – 19 Season. How much $3M to $4M each. I would also add that the Sedins make the PP work (even though Henrik should shoot more). As of this morning the Canucks have the 6th best PP in the NHL.

    Finally, certainly would be a great asset in mentoring some of the young players that will probably be on the team next season. You cannot under estimate what their leadership adds to the team.

  • If you ignore the age of the Sedins and objectively compare their point production to players in the same point range (projecting to 50-60 points), you’re paying between $4.5M to $7M. Unless they want to give a hometown discount, a salary around $5-6M is more realistic.

    I’d re-signed them to a 1-year deal until they don’t want to play anymore. We don’t want to repeat Pavel Datsyuk’s mistake of signing a multi-year deal when he didn’t really wanted to play in the NHL anymore (and go back to home and family in Russia).

    • Further to that, if you look at all of the players who scored 50-59 points last year, the average (mean) salary was $4.8M and the median (middle) was $5.1M. However, since the average < median, that means that the average was skewed. Indeed, you will see players like Eichel ($925k), Wennberg ($925k), Horvat ($894k) and Drouin ($894k) on ELC's plus Marchessault ($750k) and Gagner ($650k). When you update those salaries for their current salaries, the average jumps up to $5.3M (median is $5.5M).

    • Goon

      It’s weird how many people think they’re worth $3 million. Look at what Thornton and Marleau, players who have produced similarly throughout their careers and are a bit older, got last year – $6-$8 million.

      $5 million each for next season would be fair, and the team will still have lots of cap flexibility to pursue a big free agent if they want to (but unless it’s Tavares or a trade for someone like Karlsson, they shouldn’t).

      • Dirty30

        The Sedins may have the same value as Thornton or Marleau on the open market, however, they have emphatically stated “Vancouver or retire” which decreases their value, and they will only play as a package, which also devalues them. If you could ONLY sign Thornton with Marleau, would you still be willing to cough up $6-8 million for each of them knowing that’s the deal?

        The Sedins got THAT deal for their entire NHL career — they owe this team nothing but they also got a lot of consideration and support and compensation as well.

        They may be worth more than 3.5 each but you’re only getting double or nothing. Another $7 mill over two years and all they have to do is play and mentor and not be leaders and scoring machines?

        They’d probably just give it to charity and go out there and have fun.

      • Beer Can Boyd

        Yes, but Thornton and Marleau are grossly overpaid. When the Leaves did that Marleau deal for 3 years, I laughed out loud. I do agree that 3 million would be an insult, and that 5 for one year is fair.

      • Killer Marmot

        Marleau was a terrible signing by the Leafs. It was too much and too long for someone too old.

        And it could create cap space problems on a team that’s currently capped out, particularly in 2019 when Matthews’ contract comes up.

        • Agreed on Marleau, and I’m not suggesting the Canucks give the Sedins 6.5 over 3 years or 8 million for one year. Just pointing out some comparables to counter the idea that they’d sign for $3 million or something silly like that. Given their performance and age, they’ll re-sign for somewhere between $4 and $6 million per, depending on the term.

    • TMC

      But you can’ t ignore the age, and these players are trending downward… If Horvat, trending up is signed at 5.5 for six years, the Sedins should be significantly lower. 5 mill one year max, otherwise should be in the 4s. Defensively they don’t have the legs to catch the younger players… shouldn’t just look at the point total. If that was the case we should be paying Vanek the same…

      • Yes, they are trending down from their Art Ross days but they’re still Top 6 players. Technically, they’re trending up from last year’s 0.54 / 0.61 PPG pace to 0.64 / 0.67 PPG this season.

        If you look at last year, there were 60 players earning $4M to $4.99M. Only 13 players (21.6%) scored 50 points or more. The average was 34 points and median was 30 meaning that the average was skewed (overstated) by exceptions such as Marchand (85 pts), Kucherov (85 pts) and Pacioretty (67 pts).

        The Sedins already have 30 and 32 points so they’ve already at the average and the season is only half over. I think points are important because after the Sedins, our next best players are projected to be in the 40 point range. They may be slower but they still put up points whereas the faster players aren’t scoring enough.

      • As for Vanek, if he was a typical UFA, perhaps he could be getting $5M per season. But don’t forget he was bought out of *two* contracts totaling $50M and $19M a piece. He’s not desperate to do a final cash-in deal like other players. And there are some player deficiencies in him that caused other teams to pass on him during the offseason.

  • Adelphis

    Re-sign them for another year. And honestly, I don’t think the dollar figure matters too much — we shouldn’t be in cap trouble next year, regardless. (And they’ll probably give half of the salary to the Children’s Hospital.)

  • Burnabybob

    Sign them to a 1-2 year deal. Even if Pettersson makes the big team next year, he probably isn’t ready for second-line minutes, and it’s not in any one’s interests just to throw him to the lions. And if Pettersson is already that good, then they could put him on the second line (maybe with Ericksson), and move the Sedins down to third line. In any case, the Canucks aren’t bursting with offensive talent to the point that they can’t find a place for the Sedins. It would also be awesome if the Canucks could make one last playoff run with the twins.

  • argoleas

    1 yr for $5M, but would be okay if it went up to $6M. First of all, they bring value, and ownership will not object. Moreover, there will be no cap issues next year.

  • wojohowitz

    Quit pretending. The Canucks are still 2-3 years away from the playoffs and 4-5 away from being a contender. Cut payroll and ticket prices. Get younger sooner. They have two core players but need four or five. Get past the hype. They are bottom feeders.

  • Beer Can Boyd

    Do not insult the 2 most important players in franchise history by offering them 3 mil per. One year deals at 5 million each, and then revisit again at the end of next season. And as the guy above says, they’ll probably give half to children hospital anyway.

  • Nuck4U

    So JB wants to know about Sedins for TDL. How many forwards is he willing to move if they commit to returning?

    If it’s only Vanek that means only one of Gaunce or Goldobin play. How does this make room for all these prospects from Gaudette to Petterson knocking on NHL door? Resigning the Sedins doesn’t make the team younger nor give room for to mentor new prospects. Unless JB is looking to deal 3 more forwards on top of Vanek at deadline for futures(picks) or prospect D. If that happens, very doubtful, then resign twins to hone town discount that allows cap space to take on bad contracts for picks and to sign a young UFA like Kane that can fit 5 year contention plan.

    • Realist21

      There are no prospects that have shown that they are NHL ready, where you get this thought that 3 are talking spots is ludicrous. Vanek is moved, possibly Gudbrason there could be some deals Benning may be able to pull off, but having prospects come in and not have proper development doesn’t happen in the NHL very often.

      • argoleas

        I think the issue may be that if in next TC prospects do show that readiness, presence of too many vets would block them. Although the team has always indicated that they would find a spot regardless, I just wonder if they really would if it’s a vet with a multi-yr contract. For example, suppose next year Gaudette, Pettersson, and Dahlen show they are rdy. Would the team get rid of Gagner and perhaps a resigned Vanek? Based on what I see with MDZ, I’m somewhat worried.

        And FTR, I’m all for forcing prospects to earn their spots, like Horvat, Baer, and Boeser did over the last few years. The Virtanen and McCann situation was not managed well.

    • Sandpaper

      Aren’t you the poster that has been banned from another site for constantly arguing, picking fights and talking politics.
      This comment meant for NuckFU

    • Killer Marmot

      You seem to think there’s only room for twelve NHL-caliber forwards next year. No, they need fourteen or fifteen if they want to be competitive. This is due to injuries (like Dorsett) and players who, due to poor play, are sent down or released (like Burmistrov).

      The Canucks have nine forwards who are either signed into next year or have RFA contracts coming up, which are usually signed as a matter of course. That means they need five or six more NHL-caliber forwards. And that means that there is room for the Sedins, a couple of rookies, and a few other signings.

  • OMAR49

    The Canucks have to resign them for next year for the simple reason there is no one to replace them. We need them until some of the prospects have demonstrated an ability to take over the 2nd/3rd lines. Having said that a 1or 2 year term at $4M (max) per year would not out of line with what they bring to the table. If they stay, next year may be a good time to consider making Horvat the captain which will allow Henrik to mentor him.

  • Wise_Canuck

    Wake up losers… Playoff chokers, soft as butter and an outdated commodity in todays league which is all about youth, speed and a 200 foot game. The Sedins are done like dinner – let them walk ffs.

    You mugs might want to keep laguishing in the NHL basement but i am looking at VEGAS atop the league with no superstars, no draftees on the team yet and everyone elses cast offs. That’s how you can build a playoff team in one season… also see Tampa for a playoff bounceback in just half a season.

    Benning and the Sedins OUT. End of story.

  • tyhee

    1. Whether to sign them: Let’s assume they won’t be signed to stand in the way of players who are ready to take over. We need to look at who the Canucks are already committed to for next season and those on expiring contracts that they may want around in a few years when their chances of winning are better. Eriksson, Horvat, Sutter, Gagner, Baertschi, Boeser, Granlund, Virtanen, and Gaunce are, barring trade, almost certain to be on next year’s roster. Assuming 13 forwards + 1 as one is almost always injured (though all are available to play right now, a most unusual situation) there are four or five spots left. If the Canucks sign the Sedins, then that leaves two or three places for Dowd, Dahlen, Goldobin, Boucher, Chaput (who I see more as an AHL player and NHL injury replacement), Pettersson, some other free agent signing (which could include Vanek) and somebody presently not foreseen (a prospect who advances rapidly or a high 2018 1st round pick like Svechniko, Zadina or Brady Tkachuk.) If the Sedins aren’t re-signed, that means putting another four or five of that selection on the roster instead of two or three, or filling the space with free agent signings.

    I don’t think the Canucks will consider deliberately putting together a bad roster and I think using four or five of Dowd, Dahlen, Goldobin, Boucher and Pettersson in 2018-19 is likely to be too many, so either the Sedins should be re-signed or their spots filled by free agent signings. IMO Svechnikov, Zadina or Tkachuk being drafted and ready for the NHL shouldn’t be counted on as likely enough to plan around.

    The Sedins are a great example of how to prepare for the season, how to stay healthy and fit and how to live as a pro, plus they have knowledge to be passed on. It’s a close decision (otherwise this debate wouldn’t be raging) but I’m inclined to favour signing them rather than filling their spots with random marginal free agents on short term contracts.

    2. Term-Since they are over 35, if they are signed to a two year term and retire after the first year, the Canucks still have to count their pay against the cap in the second year. That, together with them having indicated they’ll look at things year by year and the possibility of further decline due to age, makes anything beyond a one year term too risky to be seriously considered.

    3. Salary-If they were about to be 26 so that their level of production was likely to remain the same, I’d say they’re worth somewhere in the neighbourhood of $5.5 million each for one year. With them turning 38 early next season and already showing signs of decline, there is a serious chance of further decline which makes them worth a little less (despite other teams having made, imo, insane signings which don’t take that into account.) something somewhere in the range of $5 million seems about right. It could be slightly higher or lower.

    4. Captaincy-I’ve seen quite a few calls for them to be no longer captain and assistant. Those who think the Canucks need to move on and change the complexion of the team want a different captain. Otoh there are several reasons to leave them in their present positions:
    -respect, which if they are to have value as mentors and examples is best left intact
    -taking some of the burden of dealing with the press and other matters captains have to deal with off the other players

    • Qualicum Wayne

      many good points. I believe that the Sedins would insist on a NMC with a 1 year contract and each contract in the future. This should effectively lower the value of the contract. I wouldn’t be suprised to see each sign for less than 5 mill even if market says they are worth more. Home town comfort and NMC has monetary value to both sides.

      • LTFan

        Qualicum Wayne – there is no issue with a NMC. The Sedins and Trevor Linden have said on several occasions they (the Sedins) they will not move and Linden has said they not be moved. Remember Trevor Linden was traded by Mike Keenen in 1998 to the Islanders and brought back to the Canucks 2001 by Brian Burke. Linden was always a Canuck and the Sedins will be as well, without moving somewhere else.

  • UKCanuck

    I am absolutely stunned at the number of people advocating they take the ‘C’ and the ‘A’ away from the twins. Why the urgency to anoint a couple of 22 year olds (one a rookie) to the captaincy? Will it kill them to wait another year or two and just focus on their games. We all know Bo is likely the next captain and he and Boeser are already a big part of the leadership group, leave it there without stripping Hank of the ‘C’.
    Production is still good but I think at their age we should be doing one year deals. $5million next year is fine before we have to worry about Brook’s ELC expiring the year after.

    • argoleas

      Even Brock new contract cap for 2019-2020 will have no impact, even if he approaches Draisaitl numbers. Cap could go up by $8M by then, and no other ELC will approach Brock’s number’s that season. I assume that Demko will get a bridge contract. So even if Sedins for some reason remain with team through 2019-2020 and get $5M each, there is no issue.

      Here I also assume the team does not go for Sedins AND another Eriksson-style UFA idiocy in next 2 years.

  • copey

    1 year $4M for each + option 1 year $3.5M each, with NMClauses.

    Yes, sometime next year Hank should hand the ‘C’ over, to *TANEV*. He’s the heart of the Team (Gumby). Tanev was seriously disrespected by the team brass and by the league because he didn’t have a ‘recognized name’ agent (he had Ross Gurney, great guy but the league wouldn’t deal fairly with him). Once Tanev switched, presto, he got the deal, and still he’s underpaid. The league hates ‘outsiders’. So if we ever expect Tanev to stick with the Canucks forever, give him the ‘C’ if he wants it. If he doesn’t, give it to Bo.

    The point that taking the media pressure off the Sedins is a good thing. It will lighten them up, make their last playing season(s) more fun. And if Tanev and Bo are really the new heart of the team, time to step up to that next season.