Vancouver Canucks pull off trade at the buzzer, just not the one we were waiting for

Dimitri Filipovic
March 05 2014 01:42PM

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"And if you take a right, you should arrive at YVR." [Image via the Windsor Star]

We waited all the way up until the final buzzer - nay, even a few minutes past it - to hear about a Vancouver Canucks trade today. And then we finally did. Unfortunately, it wasn't the one many people around these parts were hoping to hear about on this day.

We're referring to the Ryan Kesler trade, which was never made and will now be talked about ad nauseam all the way through to the Draft this Summer. We'll have plenty of time to discuss why it didn't happen in depth, as the truth slowly but surely trickles out.

But for now all we can do is talk about the stuff that *did* happen, and that's that Raphael Diaz is off to New York, as he'll be given a chance to contribute for a playoff bound team (assuming he manages to stay out of Alain Vigneault's doghouse..).

The return was a 5th round pick. That seems like an asset that isn't exactly worth all that much - which ironically seems like a totally fair return for one Dale Weise - but keep in mind that Diaz is an impending UFA, and a player that saw his ice-time go from 21:03 to 14:38 to 6:54 in the span of three games. With all of the blueliners returning from injury, he had quickly become an afterthought exactly a month after people had been excited about the thievery Mike Gillis had managed to pull on the Habs. 

His final line as a Canuck reads: 6 GP, 1 goal, 1 assist, 15:58 ATOI, and an impressive 59.7 corsi for % (with the 2nd highest offensively skewed zone start ratio on the team, just 0.1% behind Daniel Sedin, it should be mentioned).

It's not what you were hoping for, and I don't blame you. There's reason to be frustrated with what's going on in Vancouver these days. But don't make the mistake of taking out your pent up anger on this particular trade. The Canucks did well to at least get some sort of asset for one that was going to leave in a few months anyways.

Hey, you never know.. maybe this'll lead to them stumbling upon the next Kevin Bieksa! Or maybe the next Frankie Corrado! But realistically, more likely something closer to the next Prab Rai.

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Dimitri Filipovic writes about hockey on the internet, and is the Managing Editor of Canucks Army. You can follow him on Twitter @DimFilipovic, and email him at dimitri.filipovic@gmail.com.
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#1 Ragnarok Ouroboros
March 05 2014, 01:53PM
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I've lost faith in Gillis. Kesler trade value will never be higher than it was now. The Canucks need to get a new GM that can get things done before the Kesler issue becomes another Luongo Saga.

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#2 NM00
March 05 2014, 01:58PM
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On the bright side, Gillis didn't give up Kesler for another one of his project checkers.

#silverlining

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#3 PB
March 05 2014, 02:09PM
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@NM00

No silver lining until Gillis is gone. In retrospect I actually am pretty glad that nothing big really happened, except that Luongo got a mercy pull out of this ***show. Too good and classy a guy to continue to deal with this nonsense, even if he's got a few million reasons to be ok.

I mostly shudder at the fact that there's likely going to have to be some other kind of disaster before the Aquilinis pull the trapdoor on Gillis. Hoping that missing the playoffs is going to be enough and we can get someone else in before the draft.

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#4 north island #1
March 05 2014, 02:12PM
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What a joke, Gills is famous for overplaying his cards.So once again,he fails as a G.M.But really, I`m sure we all seen this coming.

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#5 5minutesinthebox
March 05 2014, 02:40PM
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north island #1 wrote:

What a joke, Gills is famous for overplaying his cards.So once again,he fails as a G.M.But really, I`m sure we all seen this coming.

Gillis is damned if he did, damned if he didnt. At least what he didnt do was take less than value for Kesler. There are a few rumors out there. One is that Aquillini nixed any deal for Kesler, the other was that the Pens refused to include Poulliot in the deal (which apparently was revolving around Sutter) which if that was the case, was the wise choice not to make.

Kesler will still have plenty of value at the draft. There will be just more teams with a optimistic outlook on the upcoming season, and a higher Cap to work under. Combine that with his bargain cap hit and there will be lots of offers.

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#6 Austin Wallace
March 05 2014, 02:51PM
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Ef Ownership. That is all.

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#7 The Voice In The Dark
March 05 2014, 03:02PM
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@5minutesinthebox

So nice to see a bit of common sense coming from a Canucks fan. Agree with you 100%

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#8 JDM
March 05 2014, 03:08PM
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1. The notion that there will be higher value for Kesler at the draft is nonsensical. Part of his value was derived from the opportunity to have him for the upcoming playoffs, as well as the coming season. Now, anyone trading for him only gets the latter value. The return decreases accordingly. 2. Raphael Diaz is worth more than a 5th round pick. 3. If they're not trading Kesler, does that not suggest that the Canucks have decided to try to make a push to get a playoff spot? If so, and they make it, don't they want Raphael Diaz as the extra defenseman available in case of injury? In that case, why trade him for (effectively) nothing? 4. The Canucks will not make the playoffs anyway, which makes the Kesler non-trade a terrible move. Or lack thereof. 5. Next question is the reason for the non-trade. If it was meddling ownership, I'm done. There is no reason to invest emotionally and support a franchise if that franchise is not fully committed to improving the team. 6. If, instead, it's a matter of Gillis naming his price for Kesler, setting the bar high, and refusing to budge when other teams refused to meet it, we've seen that movie before. In fact, we just saw how it ended yesterday. This would simply be incompetence.

This whole day was a massive failure. It can be redeemed at the draft, but given the track record I'm not optimistic.

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#9 north island #1
March 05 2014, 03:25PM
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JDM wrote:

1. The notion that there will be higher value for Kesler at the draft is nonsensical. Part of his value was derived from the opportunity to have him for the upcoming playoffs, as well as the coming season. Now, anyone trading for him only gets the latter value. The return decreases accordingly. 2. Raphael Diaz is worth more than a 5th round pick. 3. If they're not trading Kesler, does that not suggest that the Canucks have decided to try to make a push to get a playoff spot? If so, and they make it, don't they want Raphael Diaz as the extra defenseman available in case of injury? In that case, why trade him for (effectively) nothing? 4. The Canucks will not make the playoffs anyway, which makes the Kesler non-trade a terrible move. Or lack thereof. 5. Next question is the reason for the non-trade. If it was meddling ownership, I'm done. There is no reason to invest emotionally and support a franchise if that franchise is not fully committed to improving the team. 6. If, instead, it's a matter of Gillis naming his price for Kesler, setting the bar high, and refusing to budge when other teams refused to meet it, we've seen that movie before. In fact, we just saw how it ended yesterday. This would simply be incompetence.

This whole day was a massive failure. It can be redeemed at the draft, but given the track record I'm not optimistic.

Good comments,I totally agree.

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#10 Ted
March 05 2014, 03:51PM
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JDM wrote:

1. The notion that there will be higher value for Kesler at the draft is nonsensical. Part of his value was derived from the opportunity to have him for the upcoming playoffs, as well as the coming season. Now, anyone trading for him only gets the latter value. The return decreases accordingly. 2. Raphael Diaz is worth more than a 5th round pick. 3. If they're not trading Kesler, does that not suggest that the Canucks have decided to try to make a push to get a playoff spot? If so, and they make it, don't they want Raphael Diaz as the extra defenseman available in case of injury? In that case, why trade him for (effectively) nothing? 4. The Canucks will not make the playoffs anyway, which makes the Kesler non-trade a terrible move. Or lack thereof. 5. Next question is the reason for the non-trade. If it was meddling ownership, I'm done. There is no reason to invest emotionally and support a franchise if that franchise is not fully committed to improving the team. 6. If, instead, it's a matter of Gillis naming his price for Kesler, setting the bar high, and refusing to budge when other teams refused to meet it, we've seen that movie before. In fact, we just saw how it ended yesterday. This would simply be incompetence.

This whole day was a massive failure. It can be redeemed at the draft, but given the track record I'm not optimistic.

Fair comments but you, and any other poster here, have no idea if the value is higher now or at the draft. Stop acting like you're the be all. Kes can provide more teams he's willing to be traded to if these other teams make big moves over the summer. Who knows.

If the best offer was that Pitt offer (Sutter, prospect D and 2 picks) then no thanks. Total crap.

I don't disagree with most of your points but I am hoping Kes is moved at draft.

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#11 Sir Qautorze
March 05 2014, 03:53PM
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It seems like ever since 2011-12 The Canucks have failed to sell high on any of their assets. If they don't do something on draft day and continue to let their best pieces age into obsolescence my fandom is headed for a very difficult rebuild.

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#12 reggie
March 05 2014, 04:12PM
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This day is only a "massive failure" if you're a bored cubicle slave looking for something to rant about online.

It didn't matter what Gillis did today, half the fanbase was going to jump down his throat.

Kesler's value at the draft may be slightly lower than it is now. That's fine if the only deals available today weren't good enough. Why would Gillis rush into something so important? If he traded Kesler for Sutter and some picks I don't think anybody here would be too thrilled. Obviously most of the same people complaining about his inaction would be ripping whatever deal got made.

Lots of Canucks fans showing their true stripes over the past few days. Scum.

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#13 johnnyG
March 05 2014, 04:15PM
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HAHAHAHAH canucks... classic.

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#14 Harry
March 05 2014, 04:33PM
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Ragnarok Ouroboros wrote:

I've lost faith in Gillis. Kesler trade value will never be higher than it was now. The Canucks need to get a new GM that can get things done before the Kesler issue becomes another Luongo Saga.

Its not Mike "The Blimp, Creepy beard" Gillis fault. Its you crappy ownership that you can blame for a lack of a trade and the Luongo fiasco. A GM can easily be fired but having inept ownership is a nightmare. Just ask Islanders fans

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#15 RobG
March 05 2014, 04:35PM
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I'm not concerned that Kesler is staying. Gillis made it clear that the asking price is a 23-25 year old established NHL center, a top prospect, and a 1st round pick, if the best he could have done was Brandon Sutter and picks (which is a slap in the face) then I'm glad he didn't make the deal. Besides, Kesler is the only player on the roster that is capable of driving the bus offensively night in and night out.

I'm more disappointed that Gillis didn't move Edler - who has reached his potential. He isn't going to get any better, he doesn't mesh well with any other defenceman on the team and it's clear he doesn't fit into the system. Now is the time to move him while he is still in his prime.

I'm also disappointed Gillis didn't move some of the dead weight like Hansen, Booth, and Schroeder. He could have gotten 5 or 6 middle round picks for those three players and those middle round picks always prove to be invaluable when trying to re-build on the fly.

All in all I feel it was a wasted day.

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#16 Lemming
March 05 2014, 04:39PM
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#silverlining

#firegillis

It would make me oh so happy if Gillis was fired before the draft, so that someone else could step in and hopefully make a decent draft pick for once.

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#17 negrilcowboy
March 05 2014, 04:48PM
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fitting that gillis's last move was raphael, because with him at general manager the canuck fans have gotten it up DIAS.

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#18 GeezMoney
March 05 2014, 05:00PM
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negrilcowboy wrote:

fitting that gillis's last move was raphael, because with him at general manager the canuck fans have gotten it up DIAS.

Puntacular!

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#19 GeezMoney
March 05 2014, 05:06PM
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I'm not disappointed that the Canucks didn't move Kesler. From the reports I'm seeing, the Canucks were offered a package of a 3rd line robot, a second-class prospect on defence and a couple of late picks in each round (because Pittsburgh is good). That is a pretty bland package for a mostly reliable, elite two-way forward.

Kesler will still have value at the draft. How could he not? He'd still be in his prime in June. It's not like his prime goes away three months later.

That being said: if a deal to make the team better (over the long-term) was turned down by ownership because of some misguided attempt at making these playoffs, then the writing is on the wall: Aquillini really does view this team simply as a toy and not a business. And if that's the case, we are in Dallas Cowboys territory. Thanks, but no thanks.

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#20 Marsh
March 05 2014, 05:33PM
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reggie wrote:

This day is only a "massive failure" if you're a bored cubicle slave looking for something to rant about online.

It didn't matter what Gillis did today, half the fanbase was going to jump down his throat.

Kesler's value at the draft may be slightly lower than it is now. That's fine if the only deals available today weren't good enough. Why would Gillis rush into something so important? If he traded Kesler for Sutter and some picks I don't think anybody here would be too thrilled. Obviously most of the same people complaining about his inaction would be ripping whatever deal got made.

Lots of Canucks fans showing their true stripes over the past few days. Scum.

If Kesler's value is lower at the draft as you speculate, and the offers today were not good enough, we can expect only worse offers in June. Hoo boy!!!

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#21 PB
March 05 2014, 05:56PM
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@GeezMoney

He'll still have value at the draft but I don't know that it'll be as high as now. He's actually coming out of his prime and his main attraction for other teams would presumably be his tough two-way play and especially his desire to win, for a playoff push. He's breaking down rapidly though and I have a hard time imagining a team is going to want him more at the deadline than now.

All that said I think for all the fan fantasizing that he was somehow going to land us multiple top picks and prospects and young stars, I'm just glad we didn't end up with Brandon Sutter which was more likely as the centerpiece for a deal.

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#22 JFR
March 05 2014, 05:58PM
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After the Lu trade, I assumed it would take a boat load to get Kessler out of Vancouver and I was right.

1. If anyone looks at the facts then you don't trade Kees for Brandon Sutter and picks. Kessler is making a reasonable amount at 5 mil over 2 more years, so this contract is short and below market value which is why teams wanted him.

2. Moving Lu's ridiculous contract also frees up a buyout so we will not have Booths 4.5 mil next year either. Now add two top 6 forwards with that 10 mil or so saved and this team could be a real team.

We would have Hank, Kess Santo and Richardson as centers which we really haven't seen all year, with any combination of hold overs, young guys and Free Agents.

If there was no cap space or any Jensens, Shinkaruks or Horvats in the system I would be more worried. I

I don't believe we would have gotten anyone close to Kess back in a trade so it makes a bad trade. Picking 30 is not going to get anyone a top six forward in the next 3 yrs. terrible season and I M mad, but the team will be retooled around our centers and defense. Santo and Richardson are good 3/4 centers not above that!

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#23 Zippehead
March 05 2014, 06:04PM
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didn't read all the posts but WTF is Aquilini doing influencing trades? Shrewd hockey man? Been around, scouted the league? Get out of here, man. Please, sell the team

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#24 Ruprecht
March 05 2014, 06:16PM
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We made our bold move yesterday. After seeing what we got out of our goaltending wealth of last year I'm actually happy nothing was done with Kesler. There will be more teams with more to spend once summer comes. Why not wait for the market to free itself up and see what it bears then?

But really, as a fan, my main concern is getting Gillis to cage that ferret he's been letting roam around on his face over the last couple of weeks.

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#25 andyg
March 05 2014, 07:17PM
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Ragnarok Ouroboros wrote:

I've lost faith in Gillis. Kesler trade value will never be higher than it was now. The Canucks need to get a new GM that can get things done before the Kesler issue becomes another Luongo Saga.

We had a good gm but they fired him and brought in Gillis. They are running the show and making the decisions.

Hiring a new GM won't change that.

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#26 Senrik Hedin
March 05 2014, 07:19PM
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From all the reports, it sounded like the Penguins had the best offer on the table. That offer is reported to be Brandon Sutter, Simon Depres and 1st Rd pick (2014). Why the hell would we do that?

I'm full on board the #firegillis train, but no need to make a trade just for the sake of making one. (see Red Wings' offer for Legwand).

MG, just make sure you trade Kesler at the draft, not Horvat.

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#27 van
March 05 2014, 07:20PM
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We always have the option not to trade him. It's not like he's going to get demoted to the third line - not really a luongo situation here. If his value on the market is a plug and a few picks then why trade him? He has more value to us here - our draft record is awful. At the draft, teams might be more willing to move the young centre we want as they're not loading up for a cup run. It was overly optimistic to hope a team was going to trade a legitimately useful roster play before a cup run.

How much will Statsny get in FA with the extra $7m in cap space? Identical points/game over the last 4 years and has played 10 more games than Kesler. I guess Kesler's contract will look even better then.

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#28 Jeffery
March 05 2014, 07:53PM
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Kesler's worth at the draft should be lower, I agree part of the appeal was the playoffs.

Kesler wears his heart on his shoulder, he give 100% all the time. However he rarely makes it through a season and playoffs where he is not injured. His style of hockey is definitely a young mans game. At 30 I really don't know how much he has left. He was at one time a top 10 player in the league. He is past his prime.

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#29 Frank
March 05 2014, 07:59PM
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@Senrik Hedin

The only teams interested in Kesler were teams that had a chance to be in the Stanley Cup. That is why Kesler will be worth more now then at the Draft.

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#30 argoleas
March 05 2014, 08:13PM
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A couple of points.

1. The trades for Kesler did not seem worthwhile, so no point doing it. I doubt his value before the draft will somehow diminish. It just a few more weeks until season is done for Van.

2. What one's value is and what one can get is market-based. With larger cap and general craziness that infects buying GMs around the draft, more teams may be offering more. What teams were offering today was just plain pathetic.

3. Unlike last year, the GM (MG or a successor) will not be forced to trade anyone. So he can very well sit and do nothing in terms of Kesler. This we all want, to get the best value for him and any other player that wants out.

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#31 andyg
March 05 2014, 08:37PM
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Jeffery wrote:

Kesler's worth at the draft should be lower, I agree part of the appeal was the playoffs.

Kesler wears his heart on his shoulder, he give 100% all the time. However he rarely makes it through a season and playoffs where he is not injured. His style of hockey is definitely a young mans game. At 30 I really don't know how much he has left. He was at one time a top 10 player in the league. He is past his prime.

Plus if Kess gets hurt and needs surgery again, they will get nothing but a draft pick out of him.

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#32 NM00
March 05 2014, 09:12PM
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26 year old Bobby Ryan with 2 years of team control and a $5.1 million cap hit yielded a decent roster player (Silfverberg), decent prospect (Noesen) and 1st round pick in trade.

30 year old Ryan Kesler with a NTC, 2 years of team control and a $5 million cap hit is NOT going to yield anything better than what the Ducks received for Bobby Ryan.

He is a diminishing asset and his asset value will continue to decrease as he ages and gets closer to free agency.

If Gillis had reset expectations - not that he knows anything about resets - maybe he could have actually pulled off a trade.

But don't expect the Canucks to get any better in what's left of the Sedin era after losing two of the best goalies in the league, their best forward all while owning an AHL team devoid of NHL ready prospects...

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#33 andyg
March 05 2014, 09:23PM
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@NM00

You are a fool if you think it is all Gillis. He is a puppet on strings.

I hope they let him go so you will have a new puppet to whine about.

"topfivedraft"

They will be lucky to get a 1st round pick at the draft.

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#34 CoolerHeads
March 05 2014, 09:46PM
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@Lemming

Be careful what you wish for

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#35 NM00
March 05 2014, 10:02PM
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@andyg

You're a fool if you continually lap up some rumblings about "ownership intervention" and assume that Gillis is the only general manager in the NHL that

1) Works for a multimillion dollar sports franchise

2) Has to work and get along with an ownership group above him and a middle manager beneath him.

Do you actually think the Aquillini's are telling Gillis to set all of his draft picks on fire?

Do you actually think the Aquillini's were telling Gillis to turn Luongo & Schneider into dust?

There is zero evidence that Canucks ownership is any more or less involved than the 29 other ownerships in the NHL.

It's a business and of course an owner is going to have influence over his product.

Ownership spends to the cap.

Ownership bought an AHL team.

Ownership approved the buyout bailout Gillis required for his Ballard blunder.

The ownership intervention stuff is nothing more than an after the fact explainer.

If Gillis cannot work within the framework of a multimillion dollar sports franchise or he does not understand how an org chart works, he should find another line of work...

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#36 andyg
March 05 2014, 10:28PM
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@NM00

Thought that might get your goat!

No way at dead line day last year do they pull Lou off the ice unless a deal is done. You can be sure that the owners refused to pay the mil salary that the managers agreed to.(they killed the deal) The cap went down and they got screwed on Cory.I think the 8oo,ooo they had to eat now is hilarious.

It is their business and they have the right to micro manage.(all about the play offs)

A new gm will not change a thing!

I have been a Canucks fan for almost 40 years and will continue no mater what.

"topfivepick"

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#37 Canucks92
March 06 2014, 12:01AM
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Frank wrote:

The only teams interested in Kesler were teams that had a chance to be in the Stanley Cup. That is why Kesler will be worth more now then at the Draft.

You're right. Only teams interested in Kesler were teams that had a chance to win the Stanley Cup, which is exactly why his value COULD very well be higher at the draft (Not going to claim to know for sure whether it will be or not). More teams will start the year thinking, with the addition of Ryan Kesler, we could be a cup contender. Take Detroit for example. With Zetterberg and Datsyuk out again, and the way the season has gone for them, they will be much more interested at the draft.

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#38 Canucks92
March 06 2014, 12:11AM
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Some of you guys are unbelievable. Bashing Gillis for not taking Sutter, a 1st in '14 and a 2nd in '15 for Ryan Kesler. What? We all know if he accepted that deal, the same people who are calling for his head right now would be even more infuriated. I, for one, would be infuriated if he accepted that insulting offer.

And while I agree that Dias SHOULD get more in return, if we're going to be playing him 5 minutes/game down the stretch, he's not going to resign with us... 5th rd draft pick > walks for nothing.

I think the real problem with Gillis is that there's 29 GM's in the league who don't like dealing with him. Well, -1 for Dale Tallon. And he doesn't seem like he has much of a knack for negotiating.

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#39 van
March 06 2014, 06:57AM
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@NM00

Yeah, but Kesler has all the intangibles and he's a centre. Ryan has like 1, if we're being generous. Some GMs care about these things.

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#40 Banik
March 06 2014, 08:04AM
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So now... who is gonna score goals ?

Matthias will play as a third center ?

I'll personnaly see this lineup when team is healthy (yes... never):

22, 33, 9 20, 17, 14 7, 27, 25, 49, 45, 36

2, 8 23, 5 18, 3

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#41 Neil B
March 06 2014, 08:31AM
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andyg wrote:

We had a good gm but they fired him and brought in Gillis. They are running the show and making the decisions.

Hiring a new GM won't change that.

Enough with the rose-coloured spectacles.

Our "good GM" is Slats junior, and the Leafs are wallowing in the same mediocrity that they wallowed in until Pat Quinn got there & made the team relevant. Our "good GM" has never been hired by anyone but Brian Burke.

As for the "the ownership pulled the trade" noise, that's coming out of Shero's camp. It's nothing but sour grapes by a notoriously cheap GM that he wasn't able to convince Gillis to take an Iginla-like trade for Kesler.

That said, GMs, like coaches, have a shelf life. Perhaps Gillis has reached his. Hopefully, whether Gillis goes or no, he cuts Torts loose. He's proved himself to be the wrong coach for this squad.

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#42 Gored 1970
March 06 2014, 08:43AM
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I'm not a fan of Mike Gillis but I think he is getting unfairly roasted for not giving away Kesler for less than market value. Like so many players, Kesler was given a no trade clause to get him to sign for the home-team discount. Notwithstanding, he asked to be traded but since the clause is still in effect, Kesler is in control. He gave Gillis a list of 6 teams he viewed as favourable destinations. The problems began when 3 of the teams were not interested in Kesler. The remaining 3 teams, who had never thought of acquiring Kesler, knew as soon as Gillis contacted them that get was being forced to trade Kesler so they offered less than fair value hoping Gillis would cave to pressure and take it. I'm glad he said no. It's not that he's trying to make a push for the playoffs, he's just not giving Kesler away for a 3rd line centre, a 1st round pick that will probably be #28-30 in a weak draft year, and a prospect D selected in the 2nd round. If an aging St. Louis fetches a Callahan and possibly 2 firsts, Kesler is worth more than what the Penguins were reportedly offering.

While the no trade/movement clause gives the GM short term cap relief, it can cause huge problems when a player asks to be traded because the player can restrict the GM's ability to make the best deal for the team by limiting the destination. I would amend the standard clause to say the clause is void I'd the player asks to be traded.

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#43 Drams
March 06 2014, 09:02AM
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I think Gillis missed a great opportunity to "tank" last year. The Canucks were gearing up from a PR perspective- talking about how the lockout shortened season would be an odd one- to have a great excuse for selling at the deadline. I would hazard a guess that most fans could see that the team hadn't been much improved from the year prior and would be hard pressed to make it deep in the playoffs. -They could have avoided Roy, Sold off at least Raymond and Lapierre -Retained Connauton who could of at least played before the break (although perhaps they don't pick up Stanton?) -They would have had more picks to package in a deal or make selections in what seems like a strong draft. It would have been a palatable write-off of a season (shorter) with a better outlook in contrast to what we are dealing with now.

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#44 Mantastic
March 06 2014, 09:44AM
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Canucks92 wrote:

You're right. Only teams interested in Kesler were teams that had a chance to win the Stanley Cup, which is exactly why his value COULD very well be higher at the draft (Not going to claim to know for sure whether it will be or not). More teams will start the year thinking, with the addition of Ryan Kesler, we could be a cup contender. Take Detroit for example. With Zetterberg and Datsyuk out again, and the way the season has gone for them, they will be much more interested at the draft.

everyone knew Kesler was going to be around for 3 playoffs at the trade deadline and all had the future in their minds. Detroit already knew this, why would they be more interested at the draft?

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#45 Mantastic
March 06 2014, 09:48AM
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@Gored 1970

less than market value happens when the player limits the amount of partners you're leveraging against. you can thank Gillis and cap wizard Gilman for all the NTC handed out for "hometown discounts"

how are you comparing kesler to st-louis? i hope you know that st-louis is the raining art ross winner and still top 10 scorer

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#46 GeezMoney
March 06 2014, 09:50AM
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NM00 wrote:

26 year old Bobby Ryan with 2 years of team control and a $5.1 million cap hit yielded a decent roster player (Silfverberg), decent prospect (Noesen) and 1st round pick in trade.

30 year old Ryan Kesler with a NTC, 2 years of team control and a $5 million cap hit is NOT going to yield anything better than what the Ducks received for Bobby Ryan.

He is a diminishing asset and his asset value will continue to decrease as he ages and gets closer to free agency.

If Gillis had reset expectations - not that he knows anything about resets - maybe he could have actually pulled off a trade.

But don't expect the Canucks to get any better in what's left of the Sedin era after losing two of the best goalies in the league, their best forward all while owning an AHL team devoid of NHL ready prospects...

Apples meet oranges. Bobby Ryan isn't at Ryan Kesler's level. They score at equal rates, but Kesler is a centre who wins faceoffs, shadows the other team's top player and plays with passion. Comparing him to scoring winger is foolish -- and cherry-picking to the extreme.

What I'd be interested in reading is you valuation of Kesler, not as an excuse to bash Gillis, but to get you to actually offer up insight rather than self-righteous complainobragging.

I also think Gillis needs to go. But simply saying "he screwed up again!!! Waaahh!!!" Be a productive member of this community and offer what would have been been an acceptable return for #17

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#47 Mantastic
March 06 2014, 10:59AM
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@GeezMoney

Bobby Ryan's value will always be higher than Kesler. He's younger and doesn't have a NTC, so he simply went to the highest bidder. Kesler's value will always be limited by the NTC Gillis and Gilman gave him. I will find it hard to believe a GM will give up a top 6 C within the age range of 21-25 plus a good a-prospect and a 1st for a past prime 30 year old centre.

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#48 NM00
March 06 2014, 11:13AM
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@GeezMoney

Kesler has the positional advantage and Ryan had the age advantage.

And Ryan did not have a market-limiting NTC.

If you have something which you consider an apples to apples comparison, please share.

I'm guessing that someone who uses "plays with passion" as a central piece of his/her argument won't be swayed by tangible things like surplus value remaining on contracts, years of team control, the market limitations of a NTC, age, (diminishing) asset values etc.

I'm under no obligation to educate you or others who believe they are worthy of my attention...

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#49 NM00
March 06 2014, 11:14AM
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Mantastic wrote:

Bobby Ryan's value will always be higher than Kesler. He's younger and doesn't have a NTC, so he simply went to the highest bidder. Kesler's value will always be limited by the NTC Gillis and Gilman gave him. I will find it hard to believe a GM will give up a top 6 C within the age range of 21-25 plus a good a-prospect and a 1st for a past prime 30 year old centre.

Bang on as usual.

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#50 PB
March 06 2014, 11:37AM
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@GeezMoney

The point here isn't comparing two different players -- and I think Bobby Ryan also gets an unfair amount of heat for the "intangibles" part of it; no matter how hard Kesler plays he also carries around the baggage around diving and getting distracted by the post-whistle nonsense. Neither player deserves the amount of bad press that they get, but the main issue is valuing assets, in which comparing the value of a Ryan is relevant to seeing what Kesler might fetch.

I think a mid-level first and a top-ten-in-the-system prospect would have been a decent return for Kesler, mainly because this isn't EA sports and we can't turn the AI off. People thinking we were going to raid someone else's system for an elite prospect, a top five pick and a young roster player seems unrealistic.

I think what irritates me so much is what PITB pointed out today -- all of this would be easier to take if there seemed like an actual plan on the part of management, not seat-of-the-pant hunches or reactive, passive, or rudderless moves. In the long run who cares what happens with 7th or 8th defensemen or 3rd/4th line forwards? If the actual plan is to rebuild around a core of the Sedin and Kesler lines, then actually try and do something about that -- if this season is lost (as it increasingly seems) then spend it actually trying out guys like Jensen or Kassian on the 2nd line, give Schroeder more than 5 minutes a game (and actually play him), just do something to actually improve for next year.

Instead it's just more grumpy interviews with Gillis and Gilman telling us this season is an aberration. Lots of injuries blah blah blah. Powerplay that hasn't worked in at least two years. Team doesn't need to be blown up, it needs to be managed effectively. I was willing to give Gillis and Tortorella the benefit of the doubt; they've done absolutely zero to deserve it.

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