Around the League - Something smells FOWLer...

Jason Gregor
March 18 2010 10:38AM

Tyler Seguin was rated #1 by ISS (International Scouting Services) on Tuesday, which will re-ignite the Hall or Seguin debate into a full-blown frenzy.

There are great arguments for both players, and Jonathon Willis had an interesting piece on their point production in the OHL this past season. The most surprising stat he uncovered was that Seguin had 34 five-on-five goals compared to Hall’s 19. That is a substantial difference, and re-affirms what I’ve said before: that Hall isn’t a better goal-scorer than Seguin. Hall might be better pure goal scorer, but the stats say Seguin is just as productive, if not better than Hall. I don’t care how a player scores, just how many.

The debate over Hall and Seguin will rage on right up until the Oilers, or the team that wins the lottery, steps up to the microphone on June 25th. I’m looking forward to reading, hearing, watching and listening to both sides explain why their guy should go first.

I expect to read some interesting debates between now and then, but I wonder if some guys just say things to be different. Here’s what Jeff Marek had to say when asked who the Oilers should draft first: Hall, Seguin or Cam Fowler.

If I were the Oilers I’d probably look to trade down with whomever is at the No. 3 position, pick up another pick or an asset and select Cam Fowler (or maybe even Erik Gudbranson of the Kingston Frontenacs). The Oilers have good young forwards joining the squad as early as next year. Forwards like Jordan Eberle and Magnus Paajarvi-Svensson, to complement Sam Gagner and the returning Ales Hemsky. What this franchise needs is a stud on the blue line more than it needs another skilled forward.

This has to be a case of trying to sound different; otherwise Marek is way off base.

I decided to go back through the draft and look at the top-five picks and see how many defenseman came from those slots.

1963: No D-men taken in first round. Of course there was only six picks back then. Pete Mahovlich was the best pick going 2nd to Detroit.

1964: None taken again. Ken Dryden was a 3rd rounder and the best pick by far.

1965: Pierre Bouchard went 5th to Montreal. He was a steady D-man but he wasn’t close to being a franchise player.

1966: Brad Park went 2nd to the Rangers and went on to a Hall of Fame career.

1967: Rick Pagnutti went 1st overall but never played a game.

1968: Jim Pritchard went 3rd and never played a game.

1969: Dick Redmond went 5th, and tallied 445 points in 771 games. He had a career-best 59 points with Chicago, but with Stan Mikita and Bobby Hull he was never the go-to guy. He was solid but not spectacular.

1970: Dale Tallon went 2nd to the Canucks. Reggie Leach, Rick MacLeish and Darryl Sittler all went after him. Tallon never became an impact player.

1971: The Canucks took another D-man, Jocelyn Guevremont with the 3rd pick, and he never became an impact player.

1972: Jim Schoenfeld went 5th to Buffalo and was a steady and rugged but not spectacular defenseman. He is more remembered for his “Have another donut” quote.

1973: Denis Potvin went 1st to the Islanders and he scored 1052 points in 1060 games. A true impact D-man.

1974: Greg Joly went 1st and Rick Hampton went 3rd. Wilf Paiment, Clark Gillies and Pierre Larouche went 2nd, 4th and 8th respectively. Who would you want?

1975: Bryan Maxwell went 4th to Minnesota and Detroit took Rick Lapointe 5th. Neither was a stalwart.

1976: Washington took Rick Green 1st overall and California showed why they didn’t last long in the league choosing Bjorn Johansson. Green had a steady career with Montreal, while Johansson played 15 games. Hall of Famer, Bernie Federko went 7th.

1977: Barry Beck went 2nd and Robert Picard went 3rd. They had steady careers, but were far from impact players. The best pure goal scorer the NHL has ever seen, Mike Bossy, went 15th to the Islanders.

1978: No D-men were taken in the top five. Behn Wilson went 6th to Philly, Willie Huber 9th to Detroit and Brad March 11th to Atlanta. All were rugged, but far from franchise a top-to D-man.

1979: Rob Ramage went 1st overall in one of the best drafts in NHL history. Ramage was a very solid D-man, but was never considered a franchise player. Ray Bourque went 8th and eleven of the 21 first-rounders played 1000+ games. Mike Gartner went 4th and Rick Vaive went 5th.

1980: Some great D-men were taken this year. Dave Babych went 2nd to Winnipeg, Larry Murphy went 4th to LA and the Oilers chose Paul Coffey 6th. Denis Savard went 3rd to Chicago and I’d argue he was the most valuable to his team of the top five picks.

1981: Joe Cirella went 5th to Colorada. Jim Benning 6th, James Patrick 9th and Garth Butcher 10th were other D-men taken. Some pretty good forwards went in the top-five, Dale Hawerchuck 1st, Bobby Carpenter 3rd and Ron Francis 4th.

1982: Gord Kluzak went first to Boston and had his career was plagued with knee problems. Gary Nylund went 3rd, but the best D-men were Scott Stevens, 5th and Phil Housley 6th.

1983: Only four D-men were taken in the first round. Bobby Dollas 14th, Gerald Diduck 16th, Bruce Cassidy 18th and Jeff Beukeboom went 19th. Pat Lafontaine, Steve Yzerman, Tom Barrasso, John MacLean and Cam Neely were all taken in the first nine picks.

1984: Al Iafrate went 4th to Toronto and Petr Svoboda 5th to Montreal. Both were decent players and Iafrate had a bomb, but Mario Lemieux, Kirk Muller and Ed Olczyk were the first three picks. Once again the forwards made a much bigger impact.

1985: Craig Wolanin went 3rd and Dana Murzyn went 5th. Both became stay-at-home D-men and neither were the best D-men in the first round. Dave Manson 11th and Calle Johansson 14th turned out to be better. Wendel Clark did go first overall and played both forward and defence with the Saskatoon Blades, but he played forward with the Leafs.

1986: Zarley Zalapski and Shawn Anderson went 4th and 5th overall. Compared to Joe Murphy 1st, Jimmy Carson 2nd, Neil Brady 3rd and Vincent Damphousse went 6th. Brady was a bust and Anderson didn’t do much either. Brian Leetch was the 9th pick and became the best player in the draft.

1987: Eleven D-men were taken in the first round, with Glen Wesley 3rd, Wayne McBean 4th and Chris Joseph 5th. Pierre Turgeon and Brendan Shanahan went one and two. Wesley was a solid player, but would you choose him over the first two picks? Nine D-men were picked before Joe Sakic went 15th.

1988: Curtis Leschyshyn went 3rd to Quebec, after Mike Modano and Trevor Linden. No comparison in the impact he had compared to the first two. Jeremy Roenick, Rod Brind’Amour and Teemu Selanne went 8th to 10th.

1989: No D-men went in the top-five and Kevin Haller, 14th to Buffalo, was the best of any first-rounder defender. The best D-men were taken later. Nick Lidstrom 3rd round, Adam Foote and Patrice Brisebois went in the 2nd round. Mats Sundin, Stu Barnes and Bill Guerin went 1st, 4th and 5th.

1990: A good top-five class. In order: Owen Nolan, Petr Nedved, Keith Primeau, Mike Ricci and Jaromir Jagr. Darryl Sydor and Derian Hatcher went 7th and 8th.

1991: A true impact D-man in the top-five with Scott Niedermayer going 3rd behind Eric Lindos and Pat Falloon. Yes, San Jose took Falloon ahead of Niedermayer. Scott Lachance and Aaron Ward went 4th and 5th.

1992: No great players in the first round. Roman Hamrlik went 1st; Mike Rathje 3rd and Darius Kasparaitis went 5th. Sergei Gonchar went 14th to Washington and is the best 1st rounder. One could argue the best player taken this year was Nikolai Khabibulin, taken in the 9th round by the Winnipeg Jets. Not a stellar draft year.

1993: The Human Rake (Chris Pronger) is an elite player and he was taken 2nd behind Alexandre Daigle. Chris Gratton, Paul Kariya and Rob Niedermayer rounded out the top five.

1994: Ed Jovanovski went 1st and he is easily the best of the top five, Oleg Tverdovsky, Radek Bonk, Jason Bonsignore and Jeff O’Neill were taken after him. You can argue that Jovanovski has made a significant impact on his teams.

1995: Bryan Berard, Wade Redden and Aki-Petteri Berg were the first three picks. The only time in NHL history that three D-men went first. Chad Kilger and Daymond Langkow rounded out the top five. None turned out great, but Redden is clearly the best of the five.

1996: The string of D-men going in the top continued with Chris Phillips going 1st, followed by Andre Zyuzin and Richard Jackman went 5th. J.P Dumont went 3rd and Alexandre Volchkov was a three-game bust for the Capitals. Phillips is a solid D-man but far from spectacular.

1997: The Islanders took Eric Brewer 5th after Joe Thornton, Patrick Marleau, Olli Jokinen and Roberto Luongo. Brewer is a steady D-man who never has a significant impact on a game-to-game basis.

1998: Brad Stuart, Bryan Allen and Vitaly Vishnevsky went 3rd through 5th after Vincent Lecavalier and David Legwand were one and two. Stuart is a very useful D-man, while the other two were a number four at best. You’d probably take Stuart over Legwand, but not ahead of Lecavalier.

1999: Only eight D-men went in the first round (28 picks) and none in the top five. Patrick Stefan was a bust going first overall, but the Sedin sisters and Tim Connolly were good picks at 2nd, 3rd and 5th. Barrett Jackman went 17th and is a solid stay-at-home player, but he’s maybe a #2 D-man at best.

2000: Rostislav Klesla went 4th to Columbus, after Rick Dipietro, Dany Heatley, Marian Gaborik and before Raffi Torres. His impact isn’t close to Heatley or Gaborik, but ahead of Torres.

2001: No D-men went in the top five, and Mike Komisarek was the first chosen at number seven. Komisarek or Dan Hamhuis (12th) are the best D-men from the first round, but they don’t come close to Ilya Kovalchuk (1st), Jason Spezza (2nd), Mikko Koivu (6th) or Ales Hemsky (13th) when it comes to making an impact on their respective teams.

2002: Here is the exact case of trading down from #1 to #3 and taking a defenseman. Florida had the 1st pick, but moved to third and took Jay Bouwmeester. The Panthers got the choice to swap first round picks with Columbus in 2003, but didn’t use it because they had the higher pick going in. Bouwmeester is a solid D-man, but he never led the Panthers to the playoffs. Granted Nash only did once, but it seems obvious who has more impact in the game and to the fans.

2003: No D-men taken in the top-five, but Ryan Suter, Braydon Coburn and Dion Phaneuf went 7th to 9th. Marc-Andre Fleury, Eric Staal, Nathan Horton, Nikolai Zherdev and Thomas Vanek were the top five picks. Phaneuf and Suter would be considered on par or slightly better than Vanek and Horton, but not in same class as the top-two picks.

2004: Cam Barker went 3rd after Alex Ovechkin and Evgeni Malkin. Andrew Ladd and Blake Wheeler rounded out the top five. Barker is a solid, but unspectacular blueliner and isn’t one who can control the pace of a game.

2005: Another D-man in the third slot with Jack Johnson going to Carolina. Johnson is getting better every year, but so far he isn’t on par with Sidney Crosby or Bobby Ryan who went 1st and 2nd. Benoit Pouliot and Carey Price went after Johnson. In a few years Johnson might be considered more of an impact player than Ryan, but I doubt it.

2006: A clear case of forwards making more of an impact. Defenseman Erik Johnson went first to St. Louis, and a golf cart accident slowed his progress, but Jordan Staal (2nd), Jonathon Toews (3rd), Nicklas Backstrom (4th) and Phil Kessel (5th) are all ahead of him right now.

2007: Thomas Hickey was a shocking pick at number four by Los Angeles and Karl Alzner (5th) has yet to make a statement in Washington. Patrick Kane has been great in Chicago, James Van Riemsdyk (2nd) looks good in Philly and Kyle Turris (3rd) is still a work in progress for Phoenix. Kane is a bonafide star, and Van Riemsdyk looks like a solid player, while the others are question marks.

2008: For the first time ever, four D-men went in the top-five. Drew Doughty went 2nd followed by Zach Bogosian, Alex Pietrangelo and Luke Schenn. I think Doughy’s play in the NHL and at the Olympics has some thinking that Cam Fowler can be the same type of player. That is a big if. Guys like Doughty don’t come around that often. If you had to choose between Doughty or Steven Stamkos and his 40+ goals, who would you take? I don’t think it is slam dunk in favour of Doughty.

2009: It is way too early to know who will have the most impact amongst these five. Victor Hedman was the only blueliner amongst the five, while John Tavares, Matt Duchene, Evander Kane and Brayden Schenn are all potential offensive stars. So far Duchene and Tavares are leading the way, but we’ll need at least three of four more years to make an accurate assessment.

Playing defense is much harder to learn and master at the NHL level and that’s why it takes most D-men longer to develop. We also see few elite D-men taken in the first five picks.

By my count in the 47-year history of the draft, only seven have emerged as elite defenders. Brad Park, Denis Potvin, Dave Babych, Larry Murphy, Scott Neidermayer, Chris Pronger and Ed Jovanovski. Drew Doughty looks like he’ll join that group and the jury is still out on Bogosian, Hedman, Suter, Phaneuf, Johnson and Johnson. Considering that the latter seven have all been drafted in the past seven years, it is doubtful that all of them will become elite defenders.

Fowler might become a solid defender, but the odds are more likely that Hall or Seguin will have a bigger impact. To suggest that the Oilers should drop two spots, pick up a prospect or another pick and pass on Hall or Seguin is ridiculous. The Oilers don’t have any young, skilled forwards who have the pedigree of Hall of Seguin.

Ice woman

I think that Nashville might have the hottest girls in the league. Say hello to Denise, one of the Equipling Dance Girls. Did you know the Predators have Liquid Ice Girls and Dance Girls. She loves reality TV, describes herself as sarcastic, loves traveling, singing and prides herself on being an undefeated air hockey player. Of course she is undefeated no guy could concentrate while playing her.

   

Random thoughts

  • Was there a better UFA signing this past summer than Mikael Samuelsson? Mike Gillis signed him to a three-year pact at $2.5 million per season. Samuelsson scored his 30th goal this week, before being sidelined for two weeks with a shoulder injury. That is great bang for the Canucks’ buck.
  • The Flames won’t catch Detroit, and they’ll be hard-pressed to pass Nashville either. The Wings play the Oilers twice and Blue Jackets three times. The Wings play the Preds twice and the Flames will be praying that one of them sweeps the two games in regulation.
  • If the Oilers keep Jordan Eberle in Springfield without giving him a taste of the NHL, then I think it is fair to say that the organization is more concerned about him not living up to their expectations than the fans are. It shouldn’t be that way.
  • Who wins rookie of the year: Tavares, Duchene or Tyler Myers? Some in Detroit are making a case that Jimmy Howard should get some consideration as well, but he is 25 compared to the three teenagers. I’ll pick Duchene.
  • How do the Phoenix Coyotes keep doing it? The Yotes have won six straight and their next win will be their franchise best 44th. Lee Stempniak has replaced Scottie Upshall’s offence and the Coyotes have an outside shot to catch the Sharks and Hawks for the conference title. The fans are starting to turn up and if the Coyotes win a round or two in the playoffs, I doubt there is any talk of them relocating this summer.
  • The West will have four new playoff teams this year, compared to last, if the Preds hold off the Flames. That is great for the league and even better for the fans. If the league can continually have six to eight new teams in the playoffs every year it will keep more fans interested.

Leader through the season

Here are the top ten in pts, goals, assists and other stats.

Goals:
45:
Sidney Crosby
44: Alex Ovechkin
42: Steven Stamkos
41: Patrick Marleau
36: Marian Gaborik, Dany Heatley, Ilya Kovalchuk
33: Zach Parise and Jeff Carter
32: Alexander Semin, Anze Kopitar and Alex Burrows

Assists:
66: Henrik Sedin
63: Joe Thornton
57: Martin St. Louis and Brad Richards
56: Nicklas Backstrom
53: Paul Stastny and Mike Green
52: Ovechkin
51: Patrick Kane
50: Daniel Sedin and Duncan Keith

Points:
96:
Ovechkin
94: H. Sedin
87: Crosby
85: Backstrom
81: St. Louis and Thornton
80: Stamkos
77: Patrick Kane
76: Brad Richards
73: Gaborik and Marleau

Plus/Minus:
+41:
Ovechkin
+37: Jeff Schultz
+32: Backstrom, H. Sedin
+31: Mike Green and Daniel Sedin
+30: Alex Burrows
+27: Christian Ehrhoff
+26: Alex Semin
+23: Zach Parise

***Patrick O’Sullivan has a big lead for the green jacket sitting at -32. Shawn Horcoff has closed the gap to -29, while Rod Brind’Amour is -27 and rookie Michael Del Zotto is -22 along with Steve Staios.

PP Goals:
18: Stamkos
17: Heatley
14: Anze Kopitar and Gaborik
13: Mike Richards
12: Marleau and Crosby
11: Jeff Carter, Ovechkin, Backstrom, Ryan Kesler, Evgeni Malkin, Brooks Laich and Ilya Kovalchuk.

Hits:
266:
Cal Clutterbuck
264: Ryan Callahan
246: Dustin Brown
228: Stephane Robidas
218: Steve Ott
214: Brooks Orpik
208: David Backes
206: Brendan Morrow
205: Chris Neil
204: Matt Greene and Scott Nichol

Shots:
314:
Ovechkin
298: Jeff Carter (20 shots this week)
290: Parise
257: Phil Kessel (22 shots this week)
255: Crosby
246: Vincent Lecavalier
242: Marleau
241: Henrik Zetterberg
238: Kovalchuk, Stamkos, Heatley and Malkin

Ddf3e2ba09069c465299f3c416e43eae
One of Canada's most versatile sports personalities. Jason hosts The Jason Gregor Show, weekdays from 2 to 6 p.m., on TSN 1260, and he writes a column every Monday in the Edmonton Journal. You can follow him on Twitter at twitter.com/JasonGregor
Avatar
#1 The Towel Boy
March 18 2010, 10:44AM
Trash it!
0
trashes
+1
0
props
***Patrick O’Sullivan has a big lead for the green jacket sitting at -32.

Ahahahahahah haha ahhh ahhhhaha....ohhh man.

Avatar
#2 rubbertrout
March 18 2010, 10:48AM
Trash it!
0
trashes
+1
0
props

That's two posts in a row with plenty of eye candy. This is a streak that should continue.

Avatar
#3 rubbertrout
March 18 2010, 10:50AM
Trash it!
0
trashes
+1
0
props
The Towel Boy wrote:
***Patrick O’Sullivan has a big lead for the green jacket sitting at -32.

Ahahahahahah haha ahhh ahhhhaha....ohhh man.

Wasn't he your star my friend?

*sad trombone*

Avatar
#4 Mike Krushelnyski
March 18 2010, 10:52AM
Trash it!
0
trashes
+1
0
props

Hey Gregor, what did you think of the Wisniewski hit, worst of the season?

In my mind, there hasn't been a more clear-cut example of a player with no other intention than to hurt the other guy in a while. At least some of these high speed, open ice head shots you can somewhat justify as a guy just trying to throw a big hit. In this one, Wisniewski sees Seabrook by the boards, having nothing to do with the puck, realizes "Oh, that's the guy I want to hurt", takes 18 strides and railroads him.

How do you think the NHL is going to come down on this, particularly considering it wasn't a head shot?

Avatar
#5 stilldrinkingthekoolaid
March 18 2010, 10:52AM
Trash it!
0
trashes
+1
1
props

"Michael Del Zotto is -22 along with Steve Staios"

Thanks again Daryl!

Avatar
#6 Craig
March 18 2010, 10:56AM
Trash it!
0
trashes
+1
0
props

Jason, I think you are wrong about Eberle.

If called up and he plays well, people will be howling that he should have been here all year. If he plays poorly, people will be screaming that he is another wasted draft pick. I've heard nutcase Oiler fans refer to various players as: trash, garbage, waste of skin etc. at the drop of a hat. Why would the Oilers want to expose Eberle to any of these idiots. Let alone to soak up whatever poison is in the Oilers dressing room.

Let him join the team with a fresh start at training camp.

Avatar
#7 JorgeR
March 18 2010, 11:00AM
Trash it!
0
trashes
+1
0
props

Does anyone else think that Detroit could upset(ha) any of san jose, chicago, vancouver or phx in first round? I think I might throw some money on them going all the way as their odds must be lower then ever. Am I foolish in thinking my second favorite team has a chance??

Avatar
#8 Ambassador humantorch
March 18 2010, 11:01AM
Trash it!
0
trashes
+1
0
props
Mike Krushelnyski wrote:

Hey Gregor, what did you think of the Wisniewski hit, worst of the season?

In my mind, there hasn't been a more clear-cut example of a player with no other intention than to hurt the other guy in a while. At least some of these high speed, open ice head shots you can somewhat justify as a guy just trying to throw a big hit. In this one, Wisniewski sees Seabrook by the boards, having nothing to do with the puck, realizes "Oh, that's the guy I want to hurt", takes 18 strides and railroads him.

How do you think the NHL is going to come down on this, particularly considering it wasn't a head shot?

Campbell will probably give him a VERY stern talking-to and tell him not to do it again, there's a good boy.

Avatar
#9 The Towel Boy
March 18 2010, 11:03AM
Trash it!
0
trashes
+1
0
props
rubbertrout wrote:

Wasn't he your star my friend?

*sad trombone*

He sure was. He suuuuure was.

*shakes head disappointedly*

Avatar
#10 smd521
March 18 2010, 11:07AM
Trash it!
0
trashes
+1
0
props

Hello Denise. The Oilers need to get ice girls NOW!!

Avatar
#11 Denis Boulianne
March 18 2010, 11:08AM
Trash it!
0
trashes
+1
0
props

From Kyle Woodlief - Red Line Report on Fowler

Cam Fowler (Windsor) — Skates and passes like a pro. Shoots and bodychecks like a pee-wee.

RLR has him now ranked at #6 overall! Too risky for the Oilers!

Avatar
#12 Dyckster
March 18 2010, 11:11AM
Trash it!
0
trashes
+1
0
props
Craig wrote:

Jason, I think you are wrong about Eberle.

If called up and he plays well, people will be howling that he should have been here all year. If he plays poorly, people will be screaming that he is another wasted draft pick. I've heard nutcase Oiler fans refer to various players as: trash, garbage, waste of skin etc. at the drop of a hat. Why would the Oilers want to expose Eberle to any of these idiots. Let alone to soak up whatever poison is in the Oilers dressing room.

Let him join the team with a fresh start at training camp.

So by waiting til next season you think the reactions to either scenario will be any different? If he lights it up, folks are still gonna say he should have been here in 09/10. If he struggles, "nutcase Oiler fans" will be crying the blues and shouting those same words/phrases/thoughts you suggested.

Avatar
#13 Duke
March 18 2010, 11:12AM
Trash it!
0
trashes
+1
0
props

Marek is tough to listen to. His show on Sirius is a whole lot about him reeling off mind numbing stats he has accumulated in his years of not getting a date.

There is also a disdain for any Canadian team not named the Leafs that is on diplay constantly.

Avatar
#14 jeanshorts
March 18 2010, 11:13AM
Trash it!
0
trashes
+1
0
props

@The Towel Boy

Great minds think alike!

Oh, no, I wasn't referring to us. I was referring to all those people who DIDN'T choose O'Sullivan as their star. Those people are smart. I'd like to learn from them one day.

Avatar
#15 smd521
March 18 2010, 11:14AM
Trash it!
0
trashes
+1
0
props
Craig wrote:

Jason, I think you are wrong about Eberle.

If called up and he plays well, people will be howling that he should have been here all year. If he plays poorly, people will be screaming that he is another wasted draft pick. I've heard nutcase Oiler fans refer to various players as: trash, garbage, waste of skin etc. at the drop of a hat. Why would the Oilers want to expose Eberle to any of these idiots. Let alone to soak up whatever poison is in the Oilers dressing room.

Let him join the team with a fresh start at training camp.

Now is the time to call Eberle up for a few games. There is no pressure to win, and he can get a feel for what NHL competition feels like. This should help him prepare for next year.

Avatar
#16 OvenChicken8 - Team JSBM
March 18 2010, 11:17AM
Trash it!
0
trashes
+1
0
props

Whether Eberle plays with the Oil this year or not I believe the decision to first go to the AHL is a good one. There is a huge step between the WHL and the NHL and Springfield will help him close the gap between the two. This may help him with making quicker decisions with the puck and play against full grown me instead of 6'3 170lbs "big" defensemen. Though I think it would be nice to give him a taste of the NHL in say the last 3 or 4 games of the season.

Avatar
#17 Forrestt
March 18 2010, 11:18AM
Trash it!
0
trashes
+1
0
props

The Oilers need a center. If given the chance fill that role with your top pick imo take Seguin. I know when we were having a last call beer a few weeks ago and ran into Ottawa management they thought Seguin was a better fit for the Oilers based on who they had coming up in there system (Ebarle and the Sweede) and what there on ice needs are in the near future.

Avatar
#18 Oil Kings 'n' Pretty Things
March 18 2010, 11:24AM
Trash it!
0
trashes
+1
0
props
Denis Boulianne wrote:

From Kyle Woodlief - Red Line Report on Fowler

Cam Fowler (Windsor) — Skates and passes like a pro. Shoots and bodychecks like a pee-wee.

RLR has him now ranked at #6 overall! Too risky for the Oilers!

A big, soft, puck-mover? Sign him up!

Avatar
#19 Oil Kings 'n' Pretty Things
March 18 2010, 11:26AM
Trash it!
0
trashes
+1
0
props
OvenChicken8 - Team JSBM wrote:

Whether Eberle plays with the Oil this year or not I believe the decision to first go to the AHL is a good one. There is a huge step between the WHL and the NHL and Springfield will help him close the gap between the two. This may help him with making quicker decisions with the puck and play against full grown me instead of 6'3 170lbs "big" defensemen. Though I think it would be nice to give him a taste of the NHL in say the last 3 or 4 games of the season.

6'3" 170lbs? Are they runway models?

Avatar
#20 Dyckster
March 18 2010, 11:28AM
Trash it!
0
trashes
+1
0
props
Denis Boulianne wrote:

From Kyle Woodlief - Red Line Report on Fowler

Cam Fowler (Windsor) — Skates and passes like a pro. Shoots and bodychecks like a pee-wee.

RLR has him now ranked at #6 overall! Too risky for the Oilers!

Sounds like a young J-Bo to me. Meh.

Avatar
#21 OvenChicken8 - Team JSBM
March 18 2010, 11:30AM
Trash it!
0
trashes
+1
0
props

@Oil Kings 'n' Pretty Things

I may be exaggerating a bit :P but it's common for 16-17 year old to be over 6' and skinny as a rail because they haven't filled out yet.

Avatar
#22 common sense
March 18 2010, 11:32AM
Trash it!
0
trashes
+1
0
props

It would not surprise me to see the peewee braintrust comprised of Lowe and Tambellini pull a Marek and tradedown and take Fowler. If they did that I would boycott Rexall's for SDM and I would burn my two Oilers jerseys.

Avatar
#23 Archaeologuy
March 18 2010, 11:34AM
Trash it!
0
trashes
+1
0
props

Clearly the media is trying to find different things to write about. All year it's been "Hall or Seguin". It's been written so many times that the drama has become mundane and the media is being pressured into making it more interesting.

Fowler isnt the same calibre of player as Hall or Seguin. Taking a very good 17 yr defenseman doesnt seem like a better draw than taking a great 17 yr old forward.

Avatar
#24 Pajamah
March 18 2010, 11:36AM
Trash it!
0
trashes
+1
0
props
Oil Kings 'n' Pretty Things wrote:

A big, soft, puck-mover? Sign him up!

You forgot questionable sexuality

not that there's anything wrong with that

Avatar
#25 Oil Kings 'n' Pretty Things
March 18 2010, 11:40AM
Trash it!
0
trashes
+1
0
props
OvenChicken8 - Team JSBM wrote:

I may be exaggerating a bit :P but it's common for 16-17 year old to be over 6' and skinny as a rail because they haven't filled out yet.

I know. I'm 23, 6'4" 190lbs. I'm pretty skinny.

Avatar
#26 Crash
March 18 2010, 11:45AM
Trash it!
0
trashes
+1
0
props

Gregor wrote:

Playing defense is much harder to learn and master at the NHL level and that’s why it takes most D-men longer to develop. We also see few elite D-men taken in the first five picks.

By my count in the 47-year history of the draft, only seven have emerged as elite defenders. Brad Park, Denis Potvin, Dave Babych, Larry Murphy, Scott Neidermayer, Chris Pronger and Ed Jovanovski. Drew Doughty looks like he’ll join that group and the jury is still out on Bogosian, Hedman, Suter, Phaneuf, Johnson and Johnson. Considering that the latter seven have all been drafted in the past seven years, it is doubtful that all of them will become elite defenders.

Fowler might become a solid defender, but the odds are more likely that Hall or Seguin will have a bigger impact. To suggest that the Oilers should drop two spots, pick up a prospect or another pick and pass on Hall or Seguin is ridiculous. The Oilers don’t have any young, skilled forwards who have the pedigree of Hall of Seguin.

Me:

Wondering if Ross Creek and Archeaologuy have read this yet and if they still think drafting a good d-men > than drafting good forwards.

I totally agree that passing on one of Hall/Seguin would be a huge mistake. And this pretty much backs up my arguement of forward over d-man when drafting players who are seemingly close in talent.

Avatar
#27 roughneck
March 18 2010, 11:46AM
Trash it!
0
trashes
+1
0
props

1980, draft eligible and left undrafted Chris Chelios.

Somewhat odd that all those scouts at the Raider games drooling over James Patrick never noticed that opposition guy who dominated play and rarely left the ice.

Avatar
#28 Oil Kings 'n' Pretty Things
March 18 2010, 11:46AM
Trash it!
0
trashes
+1
0
props

Archaeologuy and RossCreek were saying "All things being equal, you take the D-man because they're harder to come by".

The general attitude here seems to suggest that all things are not equal. Hall and Seguin seem to be better forwards than Fowler is a D-man.

Avatar
#29 Archaeologuy
March 18 2010, 11:51AM
Trash it!
0
trashes
+1
0
props

@Crash

Luckily I never once said that drafting good D-Men > drafting good Forwards, so I'm in the clear.

Despite your attempt to mis-represent what both myself and RossCreek said, I am still proven right.

I said that finding and acquiring great defenseman is much more difficult than finding great forwards.

What part of Gregor's, "By my count in the 47-year history of the draft, only seven have emerged as elite defenders.", made you think that finding elite defensemen was easy?

If you're going to misrepresent what I say, at least do it in conjunction with an argument that makes sense.

Avatar
#30 Crash
March 18 2010, 11:55AM
Trash it!
0
trashes
+1
0
props

The article is saying it's a tough call on d-men as to whether or not all things are equal....The suggestion was made by Ross Creek that good d-men > than good forwards after Elliot Friedman asked the question "what would Oiler fans do if they drafted Fowler instead of either Hall or Seguin"

I suggested that higher end d-men are easier to acquire via trade than a higher end forward so you should draft the forward when all things seem equal. Even in this article the person making the suggestion (Jeff Marek) to draft Fowler calls Fowler a stud on the blue line.

Avatar
#31 Archaeologuy
March 18 2010, 11:57AM
Trash it!
0
trashes
+1
0
props

@Crash

And I still think you're out to lunch on the idea it's easier to come by high end defensemen.

Avatar
#32 Tracie
March 18 2010, 11:57AM
Trash it!
0
trashes
+1
0
props

Taylor or Tyler?? Oh jeez! i ws totally set on Taylor before and I still think I'm leaning that way...in some ways, this is a good predictament to be in, but we really need an impact player for NEXT year...so I really hope they go talk to a bunch of psychics and figure out which one is the best guy 3-5 years down the road...

And I hope people here see what I see, and that even after Pitts drafted Fleury, Malkin AND Crosby, they still picked 2nd overall the year after, which, to me, says that even if we do get Taylor or Tyler and they are impact players, we might not see much improvement in the standings, unless of course Khabby and Hemmer stay healthy.

I'm one of the people hoping that Taylor or Tyler (and a healthy team) will at least bring us back into the playoffs, but after looking at Pitts, I don't think I'll be burning my Oilers stuff if it doesn't happen!

Avatar
#33 I'm a Scientist!
March 18 2010, 12:02PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
+1
0
props
Craig wrote:

Jason, I think you are wrong about Eberle.

If called up and he plays well, people will be howling that he should have been here all year. If he plays poorly, people will be screaming that he is another wasted draft pick. I've heard nutcase Oiler fans refer to various players as: trash, garbage, waste of skin etc. at the drop of a hat. Why would the Oilers want to expose Eberle to any of these idiots. Let alone to soak up whatever poison is in the Oilers dressing room.

Let him join the team with a fresh start at training camp.

What you are forgetting is that nobody is really watching Oilers hockey anymore. Sure it might be on the TV, but there are other things happening at the same time - like people discussing the weather, or trying to solve that damn rubix cube, or seeing how many beers it takes until you are finally able to get a bottle cap in the garbage from your spot on the couch, or knitting, or....Whatever. Eberle can suck cow udder and nobody would even notice.

I say bring him up, let him get hit around by the old folks on the ice and most of all, let him get a taste of all the puck sluts out there that only go for actual NHL players... THAT should motivate him in the off season...no?

Avatar
#34 Crash
March 18 2010, 12:06PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
+1
0
props
Archaeologuy wrote:

Luckily I never once said that drafting good D-Men > drafting good Forwards, so I'm in the clear.

Despite your attempt to mis-represent what both myself and RossCreek said, I am still proven right.

I said that finding and acquiring great defenseman is much more difficult than finding great forwards.

What part of Gregor's, "By my count in the 47-year history of the draft, only seven have emerged as elite defenders.", made you think that finding elite defensemen was easy?

If you're going to misrepresent what I say, at least do it in conjunction with an argument that makes sense.

True enough...in looking back I see you said

#51 Archaeologuy March 16 2010, 05:30PM @RossCreek

I have never seen anyone claim that Good defensemen are easier to acquire than Good forwards. It goes against everything I've ever been told.

So I'll give you that and apoloize for misinterpreting that you'd say good d-men are > than good forwards

Same with Ross Creek...he didn't suggest that Fowler was greater than Hall/Seguin, he just asked the question to the nation. I was trying to go on memory and I humbly apologize for my inaccuracy.

He did suggest with all things being equal that he would take the good d man over the good forward but what I'm saying is how do you know how equal a good forward or d-man are until after they are drafted.

I still think you take the forward unless the d-man is clearly better and Gregors article suggests that taking the forward is much safer.

Avatar
#35 Crash
March 18 2010, 12:11PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
+1
0
props
Archaeologuy wrote:

And I still think you're out to lunch on the idea it's easier to come by high end defensemen.

I guess that depends on your interpretation of a high end defenseman....how many high end defensemen do you think there are in the league?

It seems as though Pronger has been readily available. Is he one of the top d-men in the league? Vishnovsky was traded. Is he one of the higher end d-men in the league? And when the Oilers acquired him in the 1st place a couple of years back I think at the time he was the third highest scoring d-man in the NHL over the previous 3 yrs...

IMO acquiring good d-men is easier...IMO for the most part you have to give up more for the higher end forwards than you do the higher end d-men

Avatar
#36 Archaeologuy
March 18 2010, 12:12PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
+1
0
props

@Crash

Now THAT (#34) I can agree with. Definitely a safer pick to go for the forward with the high pick. Defensemen are better to judge in their early 20s, Goalies in their mid to late 20's, but it's easier to judge forwards in their late teens.

I dont believe Fowler is close to either of the higher ranked forwards, gotta go with one of them this draft.

Avatar
#37 quicksilver ballet
March 18 2010, 12:31PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
+1
0
props

I'd be busting my hump to try and get something done to get both those kids (Seguin and Hall)....sure as heck beats tucking tail and tanking it again next year.

Let the guys with one year left on their contracts play them out and move them at the deadline if you can get anything, get rid of Horcoff..... then in 13 months we'll be able to see the light at the end of the tunnel. Keeping Horcoff and bringing in Jagr will only prolong this misery.

We're paying far too much to watch this debacle, the Oilers are in the entertainment business not the construction business (constantly rebuilding)....enough already.

Avatar
#38 Oil Kings 'n' Pretty Things
March 18 2010, 12:36PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
+1
0
props

A thought just occurred.

What are the odds that Boston takes Fowler with Toronto's pick if they end up in 2nd?

Boston would be in a position to pick between a d-man and a forward, instead of pick between 2 forwards and a d-man.

Avatar
#39 Archaeologuy
March 18 2010, 12:37PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
+1
0
props

@quicksilver ballet

Any suggestion about HOW to get rid of Horcoff? The only solution I see is to put him in the minors when his contract starts to impeded the club from re-signing RFAs or acquiring UFAs. Until that happens it will take a Christmas miracle to move the Horcoff contract.

Avatar
#40 OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F
March 18 2010, 12:57PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
+1
0
props
Crash wrote:

The article is saying it's a tough call on d-men as to whether or not all things are equal....The suggestion was made by Ross Creek that good d-men > than good forwards after Elliot Friedman asked the question "what would Oiler fans do if they drafted Fowler instead of either Hall or Seguin"

I suggested that higher end d-men are easier to acquire via trade than a higher end forward so you should draft the forward when all things seem equal. Even in this article the person making the suggestion (Jeff Marek) to draft Fowler calls Fowler a stud on the blue line.

I think the major point is about DRAFTING dmen... ie they are harder to project because they have alot more to learn then a forward.

The debate of draftin forward vs Dmen is different then the debate of which is easier to aquire once they have developed into legit NHL stars.

Avatar
#41 VMR
March 18 2010, 12:59PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
+1
1
props
Archaeologuy wrote:

Any suggestion about HOW to get rid of Horcoff? The only solution I see is to put him in the minors when his contract starts to impeded the club from re-signing RFAs or acquiring UFAs. Until that happens it will take a Christmas miracle to move the Horcoff contract.

I dont think there's a need to get rid of him. At worst he's a horribly overpaid 3rd line center at best he's a badly overpaid 2nd line center. Either way it looks like he's coming around and is a worthwhile player based on his ability if not his salary. Cant argue his faceoff ability and if the choice is paying him millions to play in the minors plus a couple million for a 3rd line replacement I say keep him.

If he really starts to slow down in 3 or 4 years then burying him in the minors is the way to go. I doubt you can ever trade him and buying him out would be crazy.

Avatar
#42 OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F
March 18 2010, 01:00PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
+1
0
props

I'm a fan of Seguins 5 on 5 production, but personally I'd stick with the guy with the longer track record.

Also, I think I'd puke if we traded down and went with Fowler. The Bow/Nash looks to be a great example I could seen Hall/Fowler having very similar production to these two.

Avatar
#43 Tracie
March 18 2010, 01:00PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
+1
0
props
Oil Kings 'n' Pretty Things wrote:

A thought just occurred.

What are the odds that Boston takes Fowler with Toronto's pick if they end up in 2nd?

Boston would be in a position to pick between a d-man and a forward, instead of pick between 2 forwards and a d-man.

isn't Boston one of the lower scoring teams in the league? Weren't they looking for an offensive forward at trade deadline? I thought that's what the rumour was anyway and if that's true, I think they'd go for the forward. I'm not that close of a Boston follower though so this is only my opinion.

Avatar
#44 OB1 Team Yakopov - F.S.T.N.F
March 18 2010, 01:03PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
+1
0
props
VMR wrote:

I dont think there's a need to get rid of him. At worst he's a horribly overpaid 3rd line center at best he's a badly overpaid 2nd line center. Either way it looks like he's coming around and is a worthwhile player based on his ability if not his salary. Cant argue his faceoff ability and if the choice is paying him millions to play in the minors plus a couple million for a 3rd line replacement I say keep him.

If he really starts to slow down in 3 or 4 years then burying him in the minors is the way to go. I doubt you can ever trade him and buying him out would be crazy.

3-4 years is when we'll need the space. Hall/Seguin/Eberle/MSP will be hitting their RFA contracts and Smid/Gagner/Brule will be either hitting their last RFA contract or their UFA contract.

At that time their will be lots of options to get rid of Horc that don't hurt the team long term.

Avatar
#45 DDP
March 18 2010, 01:04PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
+1
0
props
Archaeologuy wrote:

Any suggestion about HOW to get rid of Horcoff? The only solution I see is to put him in the minors when his contract starts to impeded the club from re-signing RFAs or acquiring UFAs. Until that happens it will take a Christmas miracle to move the Horcoff contract.

Not an option. Horcs as a NMC. Thanks again K-Lowe!

http://www.capgeek.com/players/display.php?pos=F&pid=26126

Avatar
#46 nickxero
March 18 2010, 01:05PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
+1
0
props

@quicksilver ballet

Enough of the rebuilding?! It's barely begun!

Jagr would not be brought in as an offensive dynamo... if anything, he would be a great mentor for all the young guys coming up and someone to wear the "C" who isn't Shawn effin' Horcoff. Addressing the on-ice leadership is a vital part of this rebuild... which will be going on for a couple of years if it's done right.

(I mostly don't want Eberle up this season because the further he is from Moreau the penalty drawing husk, the better.)

So please... stop screaming "ENTERTAIN ME!". You know not what you speak.

Avatar
#47 Petr's Jofa
March 18 2010, 01:07PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
+1
0
props
jeanshorts wrote:

Great minds think alike!

Oh, no, I wasn't referring to us. I was referring to all those people who DIDN'T choose O'Sullivan as their star. Those people are smart. I'd like to learn from them one day.

Yeah, the rest of us were real geniuses. (or is it genii?)

*contemplates living in some laser building college kid's closet until the Oilers are respectable again*

Avatar
#48 Archaeologuy
March 18 2010, 01:10PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
+1
0
props

@VMR

I agree that he belongs on the team, but his contract is substantial enough that his stay on the club will be determined by how much the team needs the space they've spent on him. He is a capable 3rd line Centre and that is all that matters until the team requires ~5 Million in cap space to resign RFAs and such.

Based on the Salary Dump that already started, I'd say that Horcoff is probably safe for another 3 years when Eberle and Seguin/Hall are coming off their entry level contracts.* That will leave him with another 2 years under contract, which would be easier to buy out or bury in the Minors.

*Actually, the team might want that space when they try to extend Hemsky in 2 years

Avatar
#49 Petr's Jofa
March 18 2010, 01:13PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
+1
0
props

@ Archaeologuy

And by the time that 3 years is up who know where the cap will have gone and what 3rd line ceters are getting paid.

Avatar
#50 Archaeologuy
March 18 2010, 01:14PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
+1
0
props
DDP wrote:

Not an option. Horcs as a NMC. Thanks again K-Lowe!

http://www.capgeek.com/players/display.php?pos=F&pid=26126

I dont know if capgeek has this right, but assuming they do, then Horc doesnt have a NMC in 3 years time. Right when Eberle and our pick this year are coming off their entry level contracts.

Comments are closed for this article.