The Rush to Judgement

Jonathan Willis
August 11 2009 06:30AM

 

The hockey world is roundly condemning Patrick Kane after reports that he and his cousin had been charged with assaulting a cab driver and depriving him of his fare. Some of that condemnation has occurred on this website.

Jason Gregor:

Patrick Kane you are a cheap ass idiot! …. I’m sorry there is no defence for what he and his chicken-ass cousin James allegedly did to a Buffalo cab driver this past weekend. The Kanes have been charged with felony robbery and misdemeanour counts of theft and criminal mischief. All of this allegedly stemmed from the cabbie not having 20 cents in change. 20 cents? Really that’s what these two tight-asses were upset about? The original fare was $13.80 and the cabbie supposedly only had a dollar in change. Being that much of a tight-ass is just as embarrassing as allegedly beating up a 62-year-old cab driver.

Baron Wanye Von Gretz IV:

If there is any truth to this business involving Patrick Kane over the weekend then he seriously needs to be beaten within an inch of his life by someone who has the ability to get through to him…. Beating up a cabbie? What a douche.

Of course, it isn’t really surprising. The hockey world is almost bereft of news by August (trust me on that) and this is a big story, involving a recognized star (EA Sports’ cover boy this year) doing something that (if true) is obviously way out of line. There are literally hundreds of articles out there as NHL writers across the continent took advantage of Kane’s foolishness and wrote their first easy column in weeks.

Still, let’s back up a second. The publicly available facts are limited; largely based on an initial police report seen by a Buffalo sportswriter, and on public comments from the cap driver, Jan Radecki.

Don’t get me wrong – if the initial reports are correct, Kane deserves most of the flack he’s getting, and most of the people criticizing him realize it (Wanye prefaces his comments with “if there’s any truth” and Jason Gregor uses the word “allegedly” three times in two paragraphs) but that isn’t what will be remembered. Kane has already been judged and found guilty by public opinion.

There are some things worth remembering here – the first of which is that Kane probably didn’t do it because he’s just that cheap. From today’s Chicago Tribune (g/t Second City Hockey):

During Kane's rookie season in 2007, the then 18-year-old was with his Hawks teammates in Detroit for a game against the Red Wings. I was staying in the same hotel as the team and a few hours before game time jumped into a cab and asked the driver to take me to Joe Louis Arena. After hearing my destination, the driver told me he'd just had a Hawks player in the cab and mentioned what a great guy the player was and that he had given the driver $50 for a $10 cab ride. He then showed me the autograph the player had given him and it read: "Show me the money! (signed) Patrick Kane" Irony aside, this certainly doesn't absolve Kane of any wrong-doing in Sunday's incident, but in my mind should help put to rest the notion that the altercation was because Kane, who as a rookie wasn't yet making millions of dollars but still gave the driver in Detroit a $40 tip, was too cheap to pay Radecki or tip him or that Kane disrespects working men and women such as cab drivers.

Another item worth noting is the public statements made by Radecki’s attorney, Andrew LoTempio (a rather prominent Buffalo-area lawyer and former judge):

"It's pretty much been blown out of proportion. It's a dispute over the cab fee and unfortunately Mr. Radecki didn't recognize Mr. Kane and just thought they were a couple of college kids. "Some of the cab drivers here have a policy of not unlocking the doors until they get paid because they get beat on their fees by the college kids and that just kind of blew up." … LoTempio added that he believed the charges would "absolutely not" rise to the level of a felony, calling it a "regular kid incident." The lawyer also said, "I think we should be able to work things out" with Kane.

None of this absolves Kane, but the issue is probably more about Kane and his cousin getting locked in the cab than it is about the twenty cents in change they were supposedly refused. Radecki’s initial comments seem damning, but then again if I’d been wronged (and it seems pretty clear he was) by someone like Kane I know that I’d have to fight the impulse to exaggerate the incident; perhaps Radecki had a similar impulse.

Naturally, we’ll likely never know – if for no other reason than LoTempio’s comments seem aimed at quieting the story. I can only guess at the reason, but it seems pretty clear-cut: a nice out-of-court settlement for his client.

Lastly, it isn’t like Kane has pled guilty. Kane really hasn’t said anything yet, but his attorney entered a not-guilty plea and made the following statement:

"Obviously he's upset that he would be accused of something like this," Cambria said. "He hasn't committed a crime, and I think the evidence is going to demonstrate that."

Patrick Kane will pay for his mistake – whatever the true extent of it - and his reputation likely won’t recover. Probably it’s deserved. But as far as I’m concerned, the critics making absolute statements without anything more than a superficial knowledge of the facts - which is all any of us have at this point - are moving too quickly.

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Jonathan Willis is a freelance writer. He currently works for Oilers Nation, Sportsnet, the Edmonton Journal and Bleacher Report. He's co-written three books and worked for myriad websites, including Grantland, ESPN, The Score, and Hockey Prospectus. He was previously the founder and managing editor of Copper & Blue.
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#51 scorecoff hemmercules
August 11 2009, 10:04AM
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RossCreek wrote:

I like how some people think that because the cabbie’s lawyer said it was blown out of proportion that that must be true. The lawyer’s not an idiot. He says it got blown up a bit and Kane writes a cheque and this mess is over. And the cabbie not having a valid license or being convicted of driving drunk in the past, doesn’t mean its ok to beat him.

I like how some people think that because the cabbie’s lawyer said it was blown out of proportion that the lawyer must be hiding something.

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#52 Jonathan Willis
August 11 2009, 10:10AM
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@ Zamboni Driver:

There's a lot to the culture of hockey I don't like - and junior hockey in particular has some pretty sad incidents (just ask Akim Aliu).

If it were a football, baseball or basketball player I would have written the same thing though. We simply don' know what the real story is at this point. Maybe Kane is completely guilty, and on top of it was coming home from a night of puppy-stomping and kitten-eating with his cousin. On the other hand, perhaps things aren't as clear cut as they appar; comments from both sides would seem to indicate that.

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#53 Wanye Gretz
August 11 2009, 10:11AM
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scorecoff hemmercules wrote:

I’ve heard enough already and its only day 2 of the “greatest scandal ever to hit the NHL”.

I would tend to agree.

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#54 Chaz
August 11 2009, 10:20AM
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Jonathan Willis wrote:

Kane is completely guilty, and on top of it was coming home from a night of puppy-stomping and kitten-eating with his cousin.

~I knew it! What a creep that guy is.~

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#55 The Fish
August 11 2009, 10:25AM
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I can totally see this little pansy beating up a cabbie over 20 cents. He's a spoiled little sh!t who has always had his own way because he's been so talented and sought after. His sense of entitlement, I'm sure, knows no bounds.

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#56 Jason Gregor
August 11 2009, 10:37AM
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Jonathan Willis wrote:

That’s interesting. The cabbie had no license and has had previous DWI convictions. I wonder what other new facts will come to light.

What does that have to do with getting beaten up? Did the Kanes find out and decide to invoke a citizen's arrest?

Kane's lawyer will spin in, but having a previous driving without insurance conviction doesn't mean he deserved to get beat up. That's how the defence will spin things. Fine. But that is not grounds to beat up a 62-year-old.

And if Kane's cousin did it and he just stood and yelled that is just as chicken-bleep. My opinion only.

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#57 Jason Gregor
August 11 2009, 10:38AM
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On a completely different note, Shawn Horcoff will be on my show today at 5:35 MST. We won't be talking about cabbies...ha.

Anything you want to know???

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#58 The Fish
August 11 2009, 10:40AM
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Jason Gregor wrote:

What does that have to do with getting beaten up?

Exactly. He could be a serial arsonist, but that has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that those two dorks kicked the sh!t out of him for 20 cents.

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#59 The Fish
August 11 2009, 10:44AM
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@ Jason Gregor: Not that he'd give you a straight answer, but I'd like to know what he thinks about this whole Heatley saga. Why is this community good enough for the likes of him and his family, but not for someone like Heatley.

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#60 Jonathan Willis
August 11 2009, 10:46AM
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Jason Gregor wrote:

What does that have to do with getting beaten up?

Almost nothing. And there isn't an excuse that I can think of for beating up a cabbie like that.

And I agree that it reflects poorly on Kane's character if he just stood by and yelled while his cousin pummelled the driver - although if that's the case it just shows him to be a coward rather than somebody who beats up old men (an improvement, I suppose).

All of that said, it does show that we don't have the whole story yet.

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#61 DeepOil
August 11 2009, 10:46AM
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When this story came out yesterday, the NHL code of conduct came to mind, immediately with many jokes about dropping a dime. Then I wondered where the story was coming from - as the story was too unbelieveable...... so here are some items to muse over..

1) There are three people involved in this story, two kanes, and one unlicensed cab driver with chemical drunk driving issues. No Witnesses. Link for Drunk Cabby: http://www.thestar.com/Sports/Hockey/article/679392

2) In the court system in the USA, innocent until proven guilty. Did the police conduct a sobriety test or breathylser on the cabbie - did the cabbie KIDNAPP (see OJ SIMPSON re: vegas) and hold the Kanes against their will inside the cab provoking them to the point of assault.

This Cabby already has a lawyer looking for a payout. Where are the photos that are usually released when someone is assaulted - via TMZ or The Hockey News (LOL).

3) Was Kane overcharged by the police officer, did the District Attorney want to make a name for himself, via a celebrity case.

Bottom line is the hawks did not need this mess, based on TALLON GATE with Havlat. It seems this convicted drunk cabby is causing more pain than he received.

Enough said - day in court please - next docket.

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#62 Jonathan Willis
August 11 2009, 10:47AM
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Jason Gregor wrote:

On a completely different note, Shawn Horcoff will be on my show today at 5:35 MST. We won’t be talking about cabbies…ha. Anything you want to know???

Who does he think (aside from himself) can handle the role of checking line centre? Pouliot/Brule, maybe?

Looking forward to the interview, Jason.

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#63 Colin
August 11 2009, 10:49AM
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@ Jason Gregor:

What moves he thinks the team should make, available players he thinks they should target.

What would you do for a klondike bar.

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#64 DeepOil
August 11 2009, 10:50AM
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@ Jason Gregor:

Ask him if it is true that Tie Domi coached Horcoff on how to chummy up to the owner of the team via squash and workouts squeezing Lowe to upset his cap structure with first line money for second line product / performance.

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#65 DK0
August 11 2009, 10:52AM
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@ Jason Gregor: I wouldn't mind hearing if he trained with anyone else this summer and how that went/what shape are they in. Also if there is anyone he is excited to see this training camp. Like maybe he hasn't seen Penner all summer but heard through teammates that hes busting his ass and is in the best shape of his life.

A summer training update hopefully sprinkled with good news would be awesome.

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#66 Ogden Brother
August 11 2009, 10:53AM
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DeepOil wrote:

@ Jason Gregor: Ask him if it is true that Tie Domi coached Horcoff on how to chummy up to the owner of the team via squash and workouts squeezing Lowe to upset his cap structure with first line money for second line product / performance.

Or he could ask him what it's like to know that Hemsky recieves all the credit for Horcs success dispite the fact that Hemsky gets outscored roughly 2 - 1 when Horc isn't on the ice with him.

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#67 Librarian Mike
August 11 2009, 10:56AM
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Jason Gregor wrote:

On a completely different note, Shawn Horcoff will be on my show today at 5:35 MST. We won’t be talking about cabbies…ha. Anything you want to know???

I'm pretty sure he'd never give an honest answer, but I'd be curious to know how much it bugs him (and others on the team) to constantly hear about 'the glory days' from fans. It's like meeting your girlfriend's family and all they talk about is how great that guy 3 boyfriends ago was.

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#68 DeepOil
August 11 2009, 10:57AM
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@ DK0:

Guess - he may have worked with Bennett for the past few years, as rumored Katz does as well..... therefore the opportunity for the Seinfeld scenario with Jerry and Keith Hernandez - man date.

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#69 Jonathan Willis
August 11 2009, 11:01AM
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@ DeepOil:

Ahh, DeepOil, we've... well, missed is the wrong word I suppose.

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#70 DeepOil
August 11 2009, 11:07AM
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@ Jonathan Willis:

At least we have had the summer of Bill Daly, trying to fight off Diamond Jim in bankruptcy court.... if he loses in AZ, he can always knock on Tampa's doors, as dumb and dumber look like they need to find some dimes to keep afloat without each other, or go to the Thrashers when they are done shanking each other in the back. I am pleased that the NHL has to come up with a relocation fee, expansion team price less cost of coyotes for the Ontario market - this puts a legal gun to their head in regards to anti trust. Richard Rodier believes in relocation fees, but says no to indemnification - sorry leafs and sabres, you can go to the count (GB) and beg for some coins. Seems that CIT group, the organization that lent Katz is going into bankruptcy, this means that many NHL owners including Batman will possibly need re-financing.

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#71 DK0
August 11 2009, 11:22AM
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@ DeepOil: Your like Dennis Miller, except instead of your references being funny and obscure, they are confusing and nonsensical.

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#72 joe
August 11 2009, 11:34AM
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Patrick will pay his cousin to take all the blame and he will pay for all the damages as well.

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#73 scorecoff hemmercules
August 11 2009, 11:39AM
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My buddy just sent me an article from a tronto newspaper and they actually knocked on Kane's parents door for an interview. When no one answered they took an opinion from a guy who was painting a house down the street, and they actually quoted that guy in the article. This is getting so lame I can't even believe it.

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#74 DeepOil
August 11 2009, 11:54AM
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@ joe:

How do you know that the cabby is not inflating the issue for monetary gain..... like Kane's lawyers have stated - this will be resolved before the courts where you have overcome reasonable doubt, locking a client / person in a cab against their will based on the possibility of non payment is unlawful confinement - no matter how trivial you feel this is.

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#75 DeepOil
August 11 2009, 12:02PM
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@ joe:

Maybe his cousin is an out of control jerk, resulting in out of control behvior (guilty by association), who punched who..... very costly from a PR perspective. The facts aren't known and the character of the cabby is in legitimate question based on the past.

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#76 ChiliChunk
August 11 2009, 12:14PM
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Jason Gregor wrote:

On a completely different note, Shawn Horcoff will be on my show today at 5:35 MST. We won’t be talking about cabbies…ha. Anything you want to know???

Does the fans' theory that his offense last season suffered due to his heavy defensive load have any merit in his mind?

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#77 Clarkenstein
August 11 2009, 12:14PM
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Jason Gregor wrote:

On a completely different note, Shawn Horcoff will be on my show today at 5:35 MST. We won’t be talking about cabbies…ha. Anything you want to know???

Jason I'd like you to ask him if he feels he should get the nads to refund, oh say, $5. Mil of his salary??

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#78 kingsblade
August 11 2009, 12:16PM
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Mike Sciarpelletti wrote:

Heatley is responsible for the death of another and his reputation is still a “top line scorer”

I'm getting sick of this. Heatley has proven himself to be a spoiled "me first" brat, but the constant use of that accident in this way is just plain ridiculous.

He did something very very stupid and someone died. However he did nothing that pretty much any of us wouldn't have done in the same situation. He was a kid behind the wheel of a fast car. He drove fast.

Yes he drove too fast, but is there even a single person here who didn't do something at that age that could have killed someone accidental? Is there anyone here who, at that age, wouldn't drive as fast as he could with that car?

He was not drunk. In fact I think he showed pretty decent restraint in not being drunk considering he had been at a bar earlier. He made exactly the kind of mistake that everyone makes at that age...he just had the tragic misfortune of causing a death when most of us have not.

Rip on Heatley for reasons he deserves, of which there are plenty, because repeatedly talking about the accident is completely unfair.

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#79 Clarkenstein
August 11 2009, 12:16PM
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Travis Dakin wrote:

Clarkenstein wrote: Did you, by chance, see the face of the 70 year old cabbie?? Or did you think he got that messed up shaving that morning?? When two punks beat up an old man then the “court of public opinion” has every right to express their opinions on pages like this And did you by chance hear what Kane had to say about the incident? How do you know that the Cabbie wasn’t being a crazy driving jerk and them locked them in the car? Un-likely but possible. What if Kane had come out to the media and said that before he was ever accused of wrong doing. Would you believe him? If you have one side of the story and you’ve made up your mind then yes you are ignorant.

Jason Gregor wrote:

Did you see the photo of the cabbie? Do you think the black eye is makeup. Whether Kane or his cousin hit him, the fact is Kane was there when the situation escalated to the point of violence, and the fare was $13.80. They took their original $15 dollars back. Explain to me what instance makes this right. Kane will pay the guy off so this goes away, but that doesn’t make it right. Cabbies are getting beat on all over the damn place, and to just shrug and say “we need all the facts” is a sad state on how you look at things. What could have happened to cause them to punch a 62 year-old man? There wasn’t a girlfriend around that he could have flirted with or made a harsh remark about. So he locked the doors of the cab. It happens lots, and makes sense since many people like to run rather than pay. Is that cause to get beat up? I sure would hope not.

Well Jason I guess we're both "ignorant"... at least I'm in good company!!

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#80 kingsblade
August 11 2009, 12:18PM
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Chaz wrote:

The fact he was charged shows he and his Cuz did something wrong. No DA would ever charge someone, let alone someone with money and influence, unless they knew something criminal occurred

That is not how it works. Not even close.

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#81 kingsblade
August 11 2009, 12:23PM
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Jonathan Willis wrote:

RossCreek wrote: I like how some people think that because the cabbie’s lawyer said it was blown out of proportion that that must be true. The lawyer’s not an idiot. He says it got blown up a bit and Kane writes a cheque and this mess is over. And the cabbie not having a valid license or being convicted of driving drunk in the past, doesn’t mean its ok to beat him. Both true. However, when the victims lawyer downplays things, and the victim turns out to be driving illegally and to have a criminal record - all within one day of the story breaking - it seems fair to say that some caution is needed before labelling Kane with any particularly vile epithet.

It should also be mentioned that it is illegal to lock someone in a car. Why does nobody care about that? The fact that something is common practice does not make it OK. I can pretty much guarantee that if a cabbie locked the doors on me there would be a situation.

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#82 Travis Dakin
August 11 2009, 12:25PM
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Jason Gregor wrote:

What does that have to do with getting beaten up? Did the Kanes find out and decide to invoke a citizen’s arrest? Kane’s lawyer will spin in, but having a previous driving without insurance conviction doesn’t mean he deserved to get beat up. That’s how the defence will spin things. Fine. But that is not grounds to beat up a 62-year-old. And if Kane’s cousin did it and he just stood and yelled that is just as chicken-bleep. My opinion only.

You have no idea what happened! All I am saying is that there is, in case you haven't figured it out by now, there is obviously more to this story than first thought. More info will come to light and as of right now all you have is one side of the story. How do you know he got the black eye from them? (he most likely did) Because he said they did it? I have news for you pal, I am currently sporting a black eye and it didn't come from a punch but I could very easily go and tell the police that my boss did it. Will you believe me? Give me a break man, you are making yourself sound totally ridiculous right now. Clarkenstein wrote:

Well Jason I guess we’re both “ignorant”… at least I’m in good company!!

You too.

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#83 Travis Dakin
August 11 2009, 12:27PM
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kingsblade wrote:

It should also be mentioned that it is illegal to lock someone in a car. Why does nobody care about that? The fact that something is common practice does not make it OK. I can pretty much guarantee that if a cabbie locked the doors on me there would be a situation.

That and it should also be mentioned that perhaps the cabbies lawyer is playing it down because it was nowhere near as bad as what the cabbie was saying and perhaps he knows there are no grounds to persue.

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#84 The Fish
August 11 2009, 12:31PM
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Off topic, but what does everyone think of those two guys who now do the morning show for the Team 1260. I personally can't stand either one of them and what happened to AJ?(Not that I really care)

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#85 Travis Dakin
August 11 2009, 12:31PM
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@ Clarkenstein: Ignorant: 1. lacking in knowledge or training; unlearned: an ignorant man. 2. lacking knowledge or information as to a particular subject or fact: ignorant of quantum physics. 3. uninformed; unaware. 4. due to or showing lack of knowledge or training: an ignorant statement.

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#86 kingsblade
August 11 2009, 12:33PM
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Travis Dakin wrote:

kingsblade wrote: It should also be mentioned that it is illegal to lock someone in a car. Why does nobody care about that? The fact that something is common practice does not make it OK. I can pretty much guarantee that if a cabbie locked the doors on me there would be a situation. That and it should also be mentioned that perhaps the cabbies lawyer is playing it down because it was nowhere near as bad as what the cabbie was saying and perhaps he knows there are no grounds to persue.

Possibly true, the problem is that his job is advocate for the cab driver, so to come out and essentially weaken the driver's position in public would border on malpractice without good reason.

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#87 Travis Dakin
August 11 2009, 12:33PM
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@ The Fish:

Give Nielson time to get comfortable in the chair. He's actually pretty funny. He was the morning/sports guy up here in Fort Mac for a while.

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#88 Travis Dakin
August 11 2009, 12:34PM
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kingsblade wrote:

Possibly true, the problem is that his job is advocate for the cab driver, so to come out and essentially weaken the driver’s position in public would border on malpractice without good reason.

Or serve to calm the desire for justice and avoid embarrassment for his client who probably wouldn't be able to afford a trial anyway.

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#89 JRyanMac
August 11 2009, 12:35PM
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kingsblade wrote:

Rip on Heatley for reasons he deserves, of which there are plenty, because repeatedly talking about the accident is completely unfair.

Totally agree, I think he's a dick as much as much as anyone, but putting his accident in the same category as MacT's or Joe Corvo beating his wife isn't class.

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#90 Librarian Mike
August 11 2009, 12:37PM
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@ Travis Dakin:

Fair point that we don't know exactly what happened in that cab. Wouldn't it also be fair to say that we have no right to criticize Dany Heatley or Chris Pronger, as they haven't actually provided their side of why they are not Oilers? For that matter, there never has been a definitive statement from Mike Comrie either.

I guess it's really a moot point about Kane anyway, because:

1. He will not be punished even if he did beat up the cabbie.

2. The PR damage has already been done to his rep.

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#91 Jonathan Willis
August 11 2009, 12:38PM
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kingsblade wrote:

Possibly true, the problem is that his job is advocate for the cab driver, so to come out and essentially weaken the driver’s position in public would border on malpractice without good reason.

LoTempio's comments just scream "private settlement". That has to be the angle he's working on.

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#92 The Fish
August 11 2009, 12:40PM
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@ JRyanMac: Joe Corvo beats his wife? He and Pat Roy have something in common.

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#93 kingsblade
August 11 2009, 12:42PM
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Travis Dakin wrote:

kingsblade wrote: Possibly true, the problem is that his job is advocate for the cab driver, so to come out and essentially weaken the driver’s position in public would border on malpractice without good reason. Or serve to calm the desire for justice and avoid embarrassment for his client who probably wouldn’t be able to afford a trial anyway.

I think what you are missing is that a lawyer does not make decisions for his client. He must fall in line with his clients wishes. To make a statement counter to his clients wishes would be very very bad for the lawyer.

As for trial...the statements made have referred primarily to the possible criminal actions against Kane. There is no expense involved for the client unless they pursue civil damages.

So the question is - why would his client wish to downplay the incident? Seeking a settlement is the best and simplest explanation.

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#94 kingsblade
August 11 2009, 12:43PM
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@ Jonathan Willis:

Agreed - see my last post above.

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#95 Travis Dakin
August 11 2009, 12:45PM
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@ Librarian Mike: Yes it is also fair to say those things. I heard things about both Pronger and Comrie. Were they true? Only a few know for sure. Same with Heatley, his team mates don't even know why he wants out. Nobody does, so what does the media do? Assume it's a disagreement with the coach and now that has become THE reason. when Healtey tells me that then I will believe it.

Everything happens for a reason (not all reasons are good I know) and people need to start giving others the benefit of the doubt until that doubt is taken away or they have proven previously to not be trust worthy.

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#96 Librarian Mike
August 11 2009, 12:47PM
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@ kingsblade:

Absolutely they'd go for a civil settlement. I mean seriously, even if Kane beat the driver worse than is alleged, he would not spend 5 minutes in jail. If you're going to get him, money is the way to go.

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#97 The Fish
August 11 2009, 12:47PM
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Travis Dakin wrote:

Assume it’s a disagreement with the coach and now that has become THE reason. when Healtey tells me that then I will believe it.

When Heatley does tell you, would you mind asking him why he is such a c0ck?

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#98 Travis Dakin
August 11 2009, 12:47PM
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kingsblade wrote:

think what you are missing is that a lawyer does not make decisions for his client. He must fall in line with his clients wishes. To make a statement counter to his clients wishes would be very very bad for the lawyer

No what I am seeing is that he rushed to tell reports his side of the story and since then he has been "advised" by council that its probably not the best course of action to persue the matter. It's a possibility and just a different perspective. I'd put money down that there wont be a "settlement" made. Just a hunch.

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#99 Travis Dakin
August 11 2009, 12:48PM
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@ kingsblade: Having said all that, I am fully aware that a lawyers job is to persue the matter full tilt if that is what his client still wishes.

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#100 Dave
August 11 2009, 12:50PM
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@ Jason Gregor: Gregor, I'm dumbfounded by your comments. Being locked in a cab would piss me off. It 'happens lots' can't be taken seiously as an argument for obvious reasons. Forming an opinion before knowing all the facts brought war to Iraq but I guess war 'happens lots' too??

I'll check your show out this afternoon like I always do and if you bring this up you are going to lambasted(sp) by the callers.

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