New arena: nothing to do with Heatley

bingofuel
July 03 2009 04:34PM

new-arena-casino

I have some news that -- blessedly -- has nothing to do with Dany "WaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaAAAAAAAH" Heatley. One of the members of my crack team of visual designers at the day-job was just sent this fabulous little gem about the Oil probably getting a new arena.

Note that this is still JUST RUMOUR. But it's compelling and sexy nonetheless. Directly quoting the e-mail we received:

Plan will unfold

The downtown Baccarat Casino land (on 104 Avenue between 101 Street and 104 Street), should soon be officially announced as the new hockey arena site and "precinct." The great man himself, Oilers and Rexall owner Darryl Katz, is expected to make the announcement and offer a few more tantalizing details, probably after the Rexall Edmonton Indy. All makes sense. The 11.5 acres of casino land was one of the top locations in the city-commissioned downtown arena feasibility study. It has LRT access and a central downtown location, plus more available "brown-field" land to the north and to the east, behind the under-construction EPCOR Tower of Power. The flag was raised when the local WAM (Western Asset Management) development company purchased the land from Gateway Casinos, with Gateway retaining the right to operate a new casino on the land.
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Bingofuel is the handsome cyborg who pulls all the levers behind the curtains of the OilersNation. When he isn't running the site, he's plugged into a wall socket, recharging. Or Brownlee and Wanye are playing "keep away" with him. He gets little to no respect.
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#101 Ogden Brother
July 04 2009, 10:01PM
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Zamboni Driver wrote:

@ jeanshorts: Good lord. This crap again? IT IS SEVEN MIL that is what payday will say, which renders him a completely immovable asset. no one on earth, saving his grunting buddy would pay anywhere near that. i don’t begrudge him for the dough. Good for him….bad for us. Very good that Lowe no longer has his insane hands on the contract pen.

Did they sign him to trade him in the next couple of years?

The Gomez, Smyth and supposed Penner deal should be proof positive that almost any contract can be moved. When will we quit playing this "immovable contract" game?

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#102 Ogden Brother
July 04 2009, 10:03PM
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tkap84 wrote:

@ Soup: well put soup man. I agree the horcoff debate will never end until that contract expires. I have always been a fan of his. I do agree with the critics who say he is not a legit or real number 1 center and more like a 3rd line center. but this is edmonton. We should have kept Stoll. Now he is going to be playing with Ryan Smyth. horcoff has the potential for a solid year this year under the new coaches. from what I understand he gives it hard during the summer training. he needs to finish hemmer’s passes more. But that’s what Heatley will come here to do! if we don’T get a scoring left winger, we are going to be battling for 8/9/10th place this season, yet again… Cole was a project by MacT that turned horribly. I even think Moreau played wing on the first line this year. that kind of thing should not be happening. put the new rink in St. Albert!! that would be great!! haha

You know Abdelkader (or however you spell it) played on the first line for the Wings for a bit in the SCF?

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#103 David S
July 04 2009, 10:14PM
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JonW wrote:

oh btw the area in question is closer to reality than rumour, to be renamed the Arena District and have links to the Nait LRT track.

I didn't know it was going to be called "The Arena District". Interesting. I do know that there's a whack of projects in the hopper, waiting for the arena project to be announced. Rumor has it there's a scale model of the whole refurbished downtown somewhere in city hall.

Also, you're right when you say it's alot closer to reality than you think. I've heard the city will be in it anywhere from $50 to $100 million too (they want to have some say in the development and being a financial partner is the best way to accomplish that). This thing has been in the works behind closed doors for quite a while. It's going to be amazing.

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#104 GLoKz0r
July 04 2009, 10:22PM
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Zamboni Driver wrote:

@ jeanshorts: Good lord. This crap again? IT IS SEVEN MIL that is what payday will say, which renders him a completely immovable asset. no one on earth, saving his grunting buddy would pay anywhere near that. i don’t begrudge him for the dough. Good for him….bad for us. Very good that Lowe no longer has his insane hands on the contract pen.

Ugh. It's 7 Mil if what you're concerned about is how much money an owner is paying. Personally, I don't care how fat Katz wallet is, the only thing that affects the TEAM is the cap hit.... Which is 5.5 Mil. How much money the player is actually getting paid would likely only hinder a trade with a cash strapped team.. so we won't be making any blockbusters with Phoenix this season using Horcoff as trade bait. Whoopdy doo.

And since when is an asset's value determined solely by how "movable" it is? Personally, I don't care if the player can't be traded anywhere, ever, if they're a benefit to the team. Horcoff is most certainly a benefit to the team, and as such, is an asset... regardless of any "movability" issues he might have.

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#105 Archaeologuy
July 04 2009, 10:24PM
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Ogden Brother wrote:

I’m really shocked you still don’t get it, cap room is not what keeps top end talent from coming here.

My argument wasnt that his overpayment is keeping top flight talent from coming here. It was clearly that it keeps the team from filling depth positions with quality players. Those depth guys generally dont pass up on money like the top tier guys will. And Cap space affects everything from possible trades to waver activity, so its pretty hard to dismiss Cap management as an important aspect of player acquisition.

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#106 Archaeologuy
July 04 2009, 10:25PM
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MattL wrote:

I mean, it’s not like we ever had a chance at drafting Shane Doan, right? *shudder*

Every time an Oiler fan mentions drafting Shane Doan God kills a kitten.

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#107 Ogden Brother
July 04 2009, 10:25PM
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GLoKz0r wrote:

Zamboni Driver wrote: @ jeanshorts: Good lord. This crap again? IT IS SEVEN MIL that is what payday will say, which renders him a completely immovable asset. no one on earth, saving his grunting buddy would pay anywhere near that. i don’t begrudge him for the dough. Good for him….bad for us. Very good that Lowe no longer has his insane hands on the contract pen. Ugh. It’s 7 Mil if what you’re concerned about is how much money an owner is paying. Personally, I don’t care how fat Katz wallet is, the only thing that affects the TEAM is the cap hit…. Which is 5.5 Mil. How much money the player is actually getting paid would likely only hinder a trade with a cash strapped team.. so we won’t be making any blockbusters with Phoenix this season using Horcoff as trade bait. Whoopdy doo. And since when is an asset’s value determined solely by how “movable” it is? Personally, I don’t care if the player can’t be traded anywhere, ever, if they’re a benefit to the team. Horcoff is most certainly a benefit to the team, and as such, is an asset… regardless of any “movability” issues he might have.

Frustrating isn't it, I'm not sure why but so many people get their panties in a knot because the think certain contracts are unmovable. As you said, it's irrelavant as long as you want to keep the player.

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#108 Ogden Brother
July 04 2009, 10:27PM
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Archaeologuy wrote:

Ogden Brother wrote: I’m really shocked you still don’t get it, cap room is not what keeps top end talent from coming here. My argument wasnt that his overpayment is keeping top flight talent from coming here. It was clearly that it keeps the team from filling depth positions with quality players. Those depth guys generally dont pass up on money like the top tier guys will. And Cap space affects everything from possible trades to waver activity, so its pretty hard to dismiss Cap management as an important aspect of player acquisition.

Good call, overpaying Horc doesn't let us overpay someone else. Anyway, the roster is over filled as is. If they needed to find 2 million to sign a third line center they could dump our 7th top 6 forward for the room.

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#109 Archaeologuy
July 04 2009, 10:29PM
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Ogden Brother wrote:

the roster is over filled as is. If they needed to find 2 million to sign a third line center they could dump our 7th top 6 forward for the room.

Agreed.

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#110 MattL
July 04 2009, 10:46PM
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Archaeologuy wrote:

MattL wrote: I mean, it’s not like we ever had a chance at drafting Shane Doan, right? *shudder* Every time an Oiler fan mentions drafting Shane Doan God kills a kitten.

I still wake up in a cold sweat sometimes...

"Doan... Doan... Doan... And the Edmonton Oilers select..."

And then boom, I'm up.

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#111 adill
July 04 2009, 10:47PM
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Ok 2 points i would like to say

Number 1, i like what the habs did with gomez they will win the cup this year for sure.

Number 2, The new arena is not in a good location edmonton downtown is not nice like montreal they should keep the old arena on 118 st.

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#112 Archaeologuy
July 04 2009, 10:53PM
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MattL wrote:

I still wake up in a cold sweat sometimes… “Doan… Doan… Doan… And the Edmonton Oilers select…” And then boom, I’m up.

I think thats what happens when Pierre McGuire goes to bed, except he's screaming "Parise! PARISE!!!"

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#113 David S
July 04 2009, 11:07PM
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adill wrote:

Number 2, The new arena is not in a good location edmonton downtown is not nice like montreal they should keep the old arena on 118 st.

The old arena is maxed out as far as revenue potential goes. The new arena will have WAY more private suites, where the cash is really made. The plans for RX2 dwarf anything that could be put on 118th. Besides, there's no development upside for the existing location. Then of course, the city is looking for the new arena to be a catalyst for downtown redevelopment.

No developer wants to build anything around the current location. Northlands owns all the good land and the NIMBY's in the area would never let anything substantial get going. Besides, it's in the middle of nowhere.

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#114 David S
July 04 2009, 11:10PM
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*The Battle of Alberta blog had an excellent run of threads on this topic last year. Then Andy Grabia quit posting and it all went to sh!t. Too bad. That was a great blog.

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#115 Duh
July 05 2009, 12:13AM
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I agree with Reagan. Sign Kotalik!

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#116 OilatSea
July 05 2009, 01:57AM
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Worked in that hole for nearly 7 years. Will be nice to see something new there the next time I come home for a visit.

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#117 DanMan
July 05 2009, 06:29AM
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All I will say is that the Edmonton Oilers will never will a division title, let alone a stanley cup, with Horc as the #1 center.

Unless we have a absolute stud on d (Im thinkin the 6'9" 270 pound monster in b-town that won TT a Vezina trophy) we go nowhere we go NOWHERE with Horc and Hemmer as our top 2 offensive players

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#118 GLoKz0r
July 05 2009, 07:21AM
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@ DanMan:

eh, I think I speak for everyone when I say that just because I'm defending Horcoff, this does not imply that the search for a bonafide sniper on the first line is over. No one's saying Horc is a marquee player. We're just saying he's a genuine first line center.

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#119 RossCreek
July 05 2009, 09:09AM
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jt in Oilertown wrote:

And just think – he produced those numbers last year at $3.6m. He has to be $1.9m better this year, right? Right?? RIGHT???

FINALLY! Someone with a clue. Exactly what I was gonna sy today, but I figuered I'd read the comments 1st. Couldn't have said it better myself.

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#120 RossCreek
July 05 2009, 09:17AM
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Ogden Brother wrote:

Did they sign him to trade him in the next couple of years?

GLoKz0r wrote:

Ugh. It’s 7 Mil if what you’re concerned about is how much money an owner is paying. Personally, I don’t care how fat Katz wallet is, the only thing that affects the TEAM is the cap hit…. Which is 5.5 Mil. How much money the player is actually getting paid would likely only hinder a trade with a cash strapped team.. so we won’t be making any blockbusters with Phoenix this season using Horcoff as trade bait. Whoopdy doo.

Agreed.

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#121 RossCreek
July 05 2009, 09:19AM
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adill wrote:

Ok 2 points i would like to say Number 1, i like what the habs did with gomez they will win the cup this year for sure. Number 2, The new arena is not in a good location edmonton downtown is not nice like montreal they should keep the old arena on 118 st.

Hello my friend.

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#122 Cam
July 05 2009, 10:30AM
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@ DanMan: horcoff is a number one centre. He isn't a superstar, but only about 30 forwards can even think about making that claim. That leaves the other 60 top line players and Horcoff is one of those.

Until MacT started messing with Penner, our first line was the only line that was producing consistently last season. It was the second line that was the problem. If the kid line played to potential (or Cole did) last season, then we wouldn't have missed the playoffs.

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#123 Harlie
July 05 2009, 10:38AM
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adill wrote:

Ok 2 points i would like to say Number 1, i like what the habs did with gomez they will NOT win the cup this year for sure. Number 2, The new arena is not in a good location edmonton downtown is not nice like montreal they should keep the old arena on 118 AVE

FIXED

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#124 ~Steele
July 05 2009, 10:49AM
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No Posts? You guys are LAZY.

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#125 DanMan
July 05 2009, 11:51AM
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I agree, Cam. Especially on the Penner point.

With Liam Reddox on the left wing, I don't really expect Horc to produce that much. I would still like to see Gagner get a shot, at least for say 5-10 games, or the #1 line this year.

I love Horc on the first PP unit. We have the perfect personnel for the PP:

Faceoff man: Horc Screen in front: Penner Blast from the point: Souray

If Pat Quinn runs the 1-3-1 he ran at the WJC (which is pretty much an umbrella) then Hemmer and Big Vish are perfect for the half boards.

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#126 Travis Dakin
July 05 2009, 12:01PM
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Cam wrote:

@ DanMan: horcoff is a number one centre. He isn’t a superstar, but only about 30 forwards can even think about making that claim. That leaves the other 60 top line players and Horcoff is one of those. Until MacT started messing with Penner, our first line was the only line that was producing consistently last season. It was the second line that was the problem. If the kid line played to potential (or Cole did) last season, then we wouldn’t have missed the playoffs.

You'll never win man. I've tried but people just seem to be crazy. Horcoff is not the best center in the league but he has shown that when given the right ice time and line mates he can be a point a game player, a strong defensive/PK player, playes the PP, isn't soft, doesn't take penalties, wins face-offs, is outworked by no one and is a leader on the team. He was also an All-star and he has also represented canada internationally. The man IS a first line center. I am very much ok with him being that guy for the next few years. Anybody that disagrees with me on these points has absolutley no clue what they are talking about when it comes to hockey and therefor should be viewed as crazy. I'm serious, if you are reading this and think I am wrong then go look in the mirror and say to yourself, "Dear god I've lost my damn mind"

Yes he didn't produce offensively last year as well as can be expected, but that is because he was way over worked because there was absolutely NO ONE to help him. No Stoll, no Peca, no any center that could handle any sort of responsibily. Horcoff is not the problem on this team. Stop trying to pretend that is an option people. That is all. I love you.

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#127 Hemmertime
July 05 2009, 12:48PM
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@ Harlie: lol. MTL cup, well played

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#128 jeanshorts
July 05 2009, 12:52PM
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@ Travis Dakin:

Yeah....but....he's untradable. His contract is by far the richest contract in the league and not even Oren Koules would be stupid enough to burden his team with a waste of space like that. Wait, that is why they signed him to a fat contract extension right? To trade him in a year or two? That makes sense.

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#129 Hemmertime
July 05 2009, 12:55PM
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Travis Dakin wrote:

. Anybody that disagrees with me on these points has absolutley no clue what they are talking about when it comes to hockey and therefor should be viewed as crazy.

Now that aint in the spirit of the boards heh. Horc is a 25-40 C in the league. He is a better option as a 2nd liner, but is a first line C on a bad C depth team. He is overpaid, but only about 1 mil cap hit so I don't mind at all.His cap hit should be in the range of Derek Roy (4 mil), Tim Connolly (4.5), Jason Arnott (4.5) Mike Fisher (4.2). I don't know what comparable players the Oilers were using to back their arguments but his agent did a great job convincing us he was higher tier than this range.

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#130 rogue
July 05 2009, 01:22PM
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Thank Gawd we signed Bhulin. FA time has been a Giant letdown 4 me. Hope there are some trades coming cuz this team has many holes to fill.I know Heatley thing has put a crimp in things.Maybe we should be filling little holes first. No way this team contends for at least a couple of years.

And no, Horc does not fill a first line center for me. 2nd. yeah but it is an endless argument.If your no.1 center has less than 70 pts, no way are you a serious Cup threat.

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#131 Hemmertime
July 05 2009, 01:23PM
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hxxp://oilers.nhl.com/team/app/?service=page&page=NewsPage&articleid=433485

List of all FA left

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#132 David S
July 05 2009, 01:45PM
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Travis Dakin wrote:

You’ll never win man. I’ve tried but people just seem to be crazy. Horcoff is not the best center in the league but he has shown that when given the right ice time and line mates he can be a point a game player, a strong defensive/PK player, playes the PP, isn’t soft, doesn’t take penalties, wins face-offs, is outworked by no one and is a leader on the team. He was also an All-star and he has also represented canada internationally.

Well I guess the comments on this post will never be on topic, so I might as well conform.

What I think is sometimes missed is this. Take a Horcoff comparable (any of you guys out there want to throw one out?). Then ask yourself how much it would take for us to acquire said comp. Then add a 20% "Edmonton overpay" to that figure - you know, the premium players would demand to come here (and if you don't think it exists, you're not being real). Then ask yourself if they WOULD come, even with that fat contract offer.

All of a sudden, Horcoff doesn't look so bad.

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#133 olderthendirt
July 05 2009, 01:57PM
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Lot's of centers can outscore Horc, few are the complete package. He will do til either Cogs or Gagner are ready. I for one believe that Cogs will make us very happy (in time) not to have Heatly

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#134 jeanshorts
July 05 2009, 02:03PM
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@ olderthendirt:

Someone had a very good quote when the Heatly deal first got leaked. It was something along the lines of "In a few years we'll be saying 'boy that Cogliano sure turned out to be great. Too bad he's wearing Ottawa silks'".

I'm really glad that is becoming less and less of a possibility. These are the guys we need to be building the team around. Not getting rid of in search of a quick fix.

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#135 RossCreek
July 05 2009, 03:04PM
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@ olderthendirt: @ jeanshorts: Mark my words. Dany Heatley will be an Oiler in less than 48 hours.

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#136 Ogden Brother
July 05 2009, 03:07PM
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DanMan wrote:

All I will say is that the Edmonton Oilers will never will a division title, let alone a stanley cup, with Horc as the #1 center. Unless we have a absolute stud on d (Im thinkin the 6′9″ 270 pound monster in b-town that won TT a Vezina trophy) we go nowhere we go NOWHERE with Horc and Hemmer as our top 2 offensive players

Funny that they went to game 7 with Horc as the #1 center.

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#137 Ogden Brother
July 05 2009, 03:09PM
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Cam wrote:

@ DanMan: horcoff is a number one centre. He isn’t a superstar, but only about 30 forwards can even think about making that claim. That leaves the other 60 top line players and Horcoff is one of those. Until MacT started messing with Penner, our first line was the only line that was producing consistently last season. It was the second line that was the problem. If the kid line played to potential (or Cole did) last season, then we wouldn’t have missed the playoffs.

Bingo, we (fans and apparantly the org) counted on a bunch of young guys to do alot of heavy lifting.

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#138 Ogden Brother
July 05 2009, 03:13PM
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Hemmertime wrote:

Travis Dakin wrote: . Anybody that disagrees with me on these points has absolutley no clue what they are talking about when it comes to hockey and therefor should be viewed as crazy. Now that aint in the spirit of the boards heh. Horc is a 25-40 C in the league. He is a better option as a 2nd liner, but is a first line C on a bad C depth team. He is overpaid, but only about 1 mil cap hit so I don’t mind at all.His cap hit should be in the range of Derek Roy (4 mil), Tim Connolly (4.5), Jason Arnott (4.5) Mike Fisher (4.2). I don’t know what comparable players the Oilers were using to back their arguments but his agent did a great job convincing us he was higher tier than this range.

I'm guessing they went with the .95 PPG FA standard from the last few years. Those guys were typically paid 5.5+

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#139 myteammytown
July 05 2009, 03:18PM
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@ RossCreek:

***word marked***

--- and i hope you are wrong ---

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#140 Archaeologuy
July 05 2009, 03:25PM
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Ogden Brother wrote:

Funny that they went to game 7 with Horc as the #1 center.

pre-shoulder injury. Some Defenseman who used to wear Souray's number had a lot to do with that too.

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#141 Ogden Brother
July 05 2009, 03:36PM
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Archaeologuy wrote:

Ogden Brother wrote: Funny that they went to game 7 with Horc as the #1 center. pre-shoulder injury. Some Defenseman who used to wear Souray’s number had a lot to do with that too.

Didn't Souray have the exact same surgery that Horc had? ...about 18 months before he put up his big numbers here?

Also, I'm not saying Horc was the reason that the team made it to game 7. I'm saying the statement "the team will never win ____ with him as the #1" is completly empty, meaningless statement.

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#142 LOIL
July 05 2009, 03:38PM
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jt in Oilertown wrote:

Anaheim - Getzlaf - $5.325m Atlanta - White - $2.375m Boston - Savard - $5m Buffalo - Roy - $4m Carolina - Staal - $8.25m Calgary - Jokinen - $5.25m Chicago - Toews - $2.8m Columbus - Umberger - $3.75m Colorado - Stastny - $6.6m Dallas - Richards - $7.8m Detroit - Datsyuk - $6.7m Florida - Horton - $4m Los Angeles - Kopitar - $6.8m Minnesota - Bouchard - $4.08m OR Koivu - $3.25m Montreal - Gomez - $7.357m Nashville - Legwand - $4.5m OR Arnott - $4.5m New Jersey - Parise - $3.125m NY Islanders - Weight - $2.2m, NY Rangers - Drury - $7.05m Ottawa - Spezza - $7m Philadelphia - Briere - $6.5m OR Richards - $5.75m OR Carter - $5m Phoenix - Turris - $2.696m OR Lombardi - $1.817m Pittsburgh - Crosby/Malkin - $8.7m each San Jose - Thornton - $7.2m or Marleau - $6.3m St. Louis - McDonald - $4.7m Tampa Bay - Lecavalier - $7.727m Toronto - Grabovski - $2.9m Vancouver - Sedin - $6.1m Washington - Backstrom - $2.4m

Haha i almost fell of my chair when i saw some of the centers you bolded as "not as good as horcoff".

Spezza, Richards, Carter, Koivu ???? Please tell me those were typos on your part haha.

I am speechless.

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#143 mike hynes
July 05 2009, 03:41PM
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I think horcoff is fine as our #1 center I think our problem is that not only is he expected to be our #1 but #2 and #3 also he has done nothing but what he has been asked to do for this team and what do we do as fans? Crap all over him what do you expect from a guy that is relied on to play both ends of the ice and both sides of special teams I think if we had another good center horcoff would show everyone why he is a #1 center

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#144 David S
July 05 2009, 03:45PM
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How about that arena?

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#145 Prop Jay
July 05 2009, 03:50PM
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How about another post?

Come on oilers nation. The internet doesn't sleep for anyone and I don't expect you motherf'ers to either. Just kidding......but seriously how about just saying the word Oilers and putting a pic up of a girl in a bikini. That would even suffice

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#146 Archaeologuy
July 05 2009, 04:01PM
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@ Ogden Brother: Different people react to the same surgery in different ways. There is no reason to assume that Horc will ever be the same based on last season. It has ONLY been 1 year, but what have you seen that suggests he will bounce back?

If the only thing that changes is the coach and Horc bounces back it will only cement that MacT was the worst coach in the league. If he cant bounce back then it's time to admit that he wont be the same guy he once was capable of being.

As far as Horc being in the top 30 centres, well that is based on his past performances not including this past season. If the Horc maintains his 2008/2009 production, then NO the Oilers can not succeed with him as their #1. If this past year was a blip then I will be surprised, considering this past season was on par with his campaigns in 03/04 and 06/07. It seems more likely that the 2 decent seasons that he had out of 8 are the blips, not vice versa.

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#147 Ogden Brother
July 05 2009, 04:11PM
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Archaeologuy wrote:

@ Ogden Brother: Different people react to the same surgery in different ways. There is no reason to assume that Horc will ever be the same based on last season. It has ONLY been 1 year, but what have you seen that suggests he will bounce back? If the only thing that changes is the coach and Horc bounces back it will only cement that MacT was the worst coach in the league. If he cant bounce back then it’s time to admit that he wont be the same guy he once was capable of being. As far as Horc being in the top 30 centres, well that is based on his past performances not including this past season. If the Horc maintains his 2008/2009 production, then NO the Oilers can not succeed with him as their #1. If this past year was a blip then I will be surprised, considering this past season was on par with his campaigns in 03/04 and 06/07. It seems more likely that the 2 decent seasons that he had out of 8 are the blips, not vice versa.

Good grief, you have no idea if he'll bounce back or not, and he doesn't even really need to "bounce back" that far, he was all of 4 points away from being a top 30 producing center this past year. In fact a whopping extra 6 points would put him in the top 25.

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#148 jt in Oilertown
July 05 2009, 04:16PM
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@ LOIL:

I screwed up on the boldface, and posted a correction later on in the comments. Spezza and Philly's trifecta are definitely better; as for Koivu, I think Horcoff's marginally better right now (looking at it from an all-around standpoint). In a year or two, if Koivu keeps progressing like he has, then it's no contest.

Of course, that's just one man's opinion. We are allowed to have opinions on here, right?

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#149 Harlie
July 05 2009, 04:22PM
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FMNF!

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#150 RossCreek
July 05 2009, 04:40PM
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David S wrote:

How about that arena?

2 points for trying

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